Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

timesofisrael.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 52 posts

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#31

Post by wkat4242 »

shrubble wrote: post #30
wkat4242 wrote: post #4

I see they are taking birth rates as a basis. That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted. When I look at my own country it seems that people are less and less following their parents' religious choices. Most Catholics in Holland of my generation are only so in name. That say they are to please the parents, but they don't do anything ch…

Haredim society is more like the Amish, everything is tightly integrated. Far less Amish leave the church and community.

Ah I see. I don't know Amish. We don't really have those in Holland. We have Calvinists who are pretty strict by our standards, some even refuse to own a TV and they "close" their websites on Sundays.

But young people live in a more open world. The ones that still adhere to such strict rules are a tiny minority.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#32

Post by mindslight »

mnky9800n wrote: post #25
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post is needlessly strident and kneejerk, and your claim that an uninvolved third party has to take certain action to avoid blame is obviously not something that everyone would agree on. In any event, Israeli society is extremely divided and, indeed, half of it has been trying hard to hold the other half to account. This is obvious to any visitor to Israel who talks to a wide range of people. Protests have been…

Don't Americans have some responsibility for the mass dead Iraqis? Whether they supported the war directly or not they sat by while their country waged war for economic reasons. Why is it ok to accept violence wrought by others? Good that some Israelis protest. But what prevents needless death and pain? What actions bring peace?

"Sat by" is doing an awful lot of work there. My recollection was not that many Americans actually "sat by" - it was quite divisive. Lazy support like those "support our troops" bracelets was of course positively supporting the war and thus shares in responsibility, but that was by no means the whole country.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#33

Post by agensaequivocum »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #12
wkat4242 wrote: post #4

I see they are taking birth rates as a basis. That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted. When I look at my own country it seems that people are less and less following their parents' religious choices. Most Catholics in Holland of my generation are only so in name. That say they are to please the parents, but they don't do anything ch…

I wonder how much of Catholicism’s continued decline can be attributed to Vatican II? I never experienced the OG mass format, but it seems possibly less dumb than the modern “life lecture by a guy with no actual life experience”. It was in decline at the time and they were trying to save it, but I feel like a resurgence might have been more likely if they hadn’t neutered it.

The Tridentine Mass also has a homily. I like the Norvus Ordo done in a reverent manner. However, he prescripts of Vatican II were abused. Latin was supposed to be maintained generally. Music was supposed to be primarily Gregorian Chant. Communion on the hand was allowed because people were doing it and there was a desire to prevent those people being in sin while it was corrected. Instead it was allowed to spread and become entrenched. The Church needs to focus on preaching the Truth a specially the hard controversial ones of our time, an increased focus on the Sacraments (e.g. more daily Masses, especially daily Confession, moving Confirmation to before first Communion---this last one predates Vatican II), reintroducing the mystery and reverence of the Eucharist by switching back to Latin, mandating kneeling during reception of Communion and on the tongue only.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#34

Post by stefantalpalaru »

idontwantthis wrote: post #6

What confuses me most about Israel’s rising political turmoil is that the faction driving for violence against Muslims (the ultra orthodox) are also exempt from the military. Say they get everything they want and they become an apartheid, theocracy…how do they expect to survive? Who will defend them from their neighbors and from their Muslim citizens? How would the country with arguably the greatest need for a strong…

[dead]

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#35

Post by tguvot »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #27
fakedang wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So secular folks risk their lives in military service to secure the lives of these Haredis, and upon returning to civilian life find out that no jobs exist for them, because the (quite hated) Haredis have taken them up? Sounds like a very sound recipe for stability indeed.

In some countries with universal conscription that can be dodged, men who actually serve are more likely to be hired for desirable jobs. So, it could be that even if Haredim work in secular professions, those veterans would still have an advantage over them in the employment market and the Haredim wouldn't be viewed as ungrateful competition.

the only difference is in jobs that require experience with weapon. no other advantages

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#36

Post by names_are_hard »

idontwantthis wrote: post #6

What confuses me most about Israel’s rising political turmoil is that the faction driving for violence against Muslims (the ultra orthodox) are also exempt from the military. Say they get everything they want and they become an apartheid, theocracy…how do they expect to survive? Who will defend them from their neighbors and from their Muslim citizens? How would the country with arguably the greatest need for a strong…

Israel is indeed a confusing place.

The Haredi (aka ultra orthodox) parties are not the key drivers of the settlement enterprise. They are mostly ambivalent to the whole thing, their primary focus is preserving their lifestyle, which is less about the land and more about everything else in the religion. In fact, just last week one of the Haredi politicians published a populist rant about how Zionism is terrible, the Zionists are the root of all the problems etc etc.

The two most right-wing parties in the parliament (headed by Smotrich and Ben Gvir, respectively) are not Haredi, and their constituents do serve in the military, by and large (although less than their secular counterparts, as the women don't have to serve and there are programs that allow abbreviated service for men as far as I understand).

It's complicated..

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#37

Post by names_are_hard »

mnky9800n wrote: post #15
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a frequent misunderstanding outside Israel. Ultra-Orthodox aren’t necessarily driving for violence against Muslims, and some Ultra-Orthodox groups are anti-Zionist. If you visit a West Bank settlement, you meet a lot of plain Orthodox, and also secular Israelis who are on the hawkish end of the spectrum. When I visited the West Bank, I was invited in by a family who immigrated from former USSR on grounds of…

Your statement has the same air of statements like "not every man is a sexist", yes but men in general are responsible for how men in general treat women. If Jews do not hold to account the extremist views that lead to murder and violence their brothers have then they are too blame as well.

I didn't read the comment in any way like "not every man is a sexist", mainly because what the comment says is true - Israeli society is made up of very particular groups, and the political map is complex, its not a single vector of left-wing to right-wing or secular to religious.

The settlement movement is a mix of secular nationalist people and religious Zionist (a group that contains a lot of very religious people but is socially distinct from Haredi/ultra orthodox, and the difference is immediately obvious to anyone who is familiar with the groups based on their dress code alone).

There's even a political party that caters primarily toward immigrants from the former Soviet Union that is simultaneously staunchly secular and anti-Haredi but also right wing and nationalistic.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#38

Post by weatherlite »

idontwantthis wrote: post #6

What confuses me most about Israel’s rising political turmoil is that the faction driving for violence against Muslims (the ultra orthodox) are also exempt from the military. Say they get everything they want and they become an apartheid, theocracy…how do they expect to survive? Who will defend them from their neighbors and from their Muslim citizens? How would the country with arguably the greatest need for a strong…

> What confuses me most about Israel’s rising political turmoil is that the faction driving for violence against Muslims (the ultra orthodox) are also exempt from the military.

That's mostly inaccurate. Most Haredi people don't "promote" any violence against Palestinians, since they don't see themselves as part of this conflict (they mostly identify as non Zionist), don't go to the army, and in general don't participate in any violence against Palestinians. You might be talking about religious zionists, most of their men actually do go to the army.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#39

Post by lormayna »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #8
wkat4242 wrote: post #4

I see they are taking birth rates as a basis. That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted. When I look at my own country it seems that people are less and less following their parents' religious choices. Most Catholics in Holland of my generation are only so in name. That say they are to please the parents, but they don't do anything ch…

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is not like the American religious practices you mention, where faith is a matter of identity but only expressed on Sundays or whatever. Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is a total way of life, for men especially it determines your daily schedule every day of the week. The Torah study that many men engage in full-time gives them a distinct body of knowledge and perspective that makes them feel part of th…

I have born and raised in a little similar environment, a semi catholic cult called Neocathecumenal Way, but after a massive growth in the 80s and in the 90s the movement is declining. Right now, only the teen agers (sons of the members) are joining the Way, but they usually leave as they grew up.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#40

Post by benj111 »

tguvot wrote: post #35
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries with universal conscription that can be dodged, men who actually serve are more likely to be hired for desirable jobs. So, it could be that even if Haredim work in secular professions, those veterans would still have an advantage over them in the employment market and the Haredim wouldn't be viewed as ungrateful competition.

the only difference is in jobs that require experience with weapon. no other advantages

Not necessarily.

At the very least an 18 year old who has been forced to fend for themselves is very different to an 18 year-old who still lives at home and has their mum do their washing.

I know who I'd rather employ.

Post reply on HN