24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#41

Post by tonfa » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:19 PM UTC

lambada wrote: post #5

Permit wrote: post #2

Honest question: Why is Facebook governed, at least in part, by European law? The reason I ask is that the United States has a lot of trouble enforcing its copyright laws abroad (which is good in my opinion), but Facebook and Google seem to bend to European laws regarding privacy and transparency.

It's to do with whether a company has a 'physical presence' in a country. Facebook has a large presence in Ireland as a company, and Ireland is part of Europe. It's less to do with a country enforcing it's laws abroad, and more to do with companies setting up a physical presence in a country.

It doesn't have to be a physical presence. Some EU countries block gambling sites without a physical presence (for example, a court can decide that the french law applies, depending on a number of parameters, like among others the availability of translations)

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#42

Post by MartinMond » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:20 PM UTC

VladRussian wrote: post #37

MartinMond wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very easy. All countries (except Somalia) regulate their markets. For example in the US if there are more than 500 investors in your company you are required to disclose certain information (I read about that regarding Facebook: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/facebook-and-the-500-... ) In the EU companies are required to disclose data about individuals to those individuals. In both cases what happened wa…

>All countries (except Somalia) regulate their markets. if you know anybody who's worked in Somalia, you'd know about regulations there. It is just a little bit faster and less traditional when cease-and-desist is delivered using AK-47, and regulations change frequently as one "General" is replaced by another.

True. I totally forgot about that.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#43

Post by dasil003 » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:20 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #20

count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

[deleted]

And part of that education is determining exactly what the privacy implications actually are.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#44

Post by count » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:20 PM UTC

fhars wrote: post #19

count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

No, if they don't abide by the laws, their purposes are not completely legal. Just like you cannot completely voluntarily sell yourself into slavery under US law, there are certain inalienable rights that cannot be given up under european law, and control over your personal data is one of them. That is the point of it.

Semantics here - if they aren't abiding, you are right, it is illegal. But I'm asking more along the lines of 'why' is that illegal.

Is that data privacy an inalienable, non-contract-surrendable right? That seems ridiculously draconian.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#45

Post by sek » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:21 PM UTC

count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

Bullshit, it is not "completely voluntary". When everyone is using a communication service and there is no alternative. They claim to have a billion users.

Short it is a monopoly, they have a lot of power and when you start to abuse it, like forcing users to accept your unfair terms of service, the government comes into play.

I never heard that Google doesn't remove stuff when you remove them inside your service. They advertise the huge space on Gmail by "never have to delete anything", that is completely different.

> Why is nobody complaining about NTFS or ext3/4 not actually zeroing out the file space?

I normally don't reply to such a stupid argument, but i have a related video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SCZzgfdTBo#t=3m20s

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#46

Post by count » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:22 PM UTC

VladRussian wrote: post #32

count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

>Why is nobody complaining about NTFS or ext3/4 not actually zeroing out the file space when you delete something, and instead just 'marking it deleted' or 'removing the pointer in the inode'? you have obviously never dealt with DoD or anybody close to it or even just with a serious enterprise/bank.

Actually, I have. Shredding, NIST, the whole nine. Facebook isn't protecting classified nuclear secrets, or the keys to the financial kingdom, it's protecting pictures of cats and drunk college parties. And outside of a few special places, such as the DoD, NOBODY CARES about the file system issues.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#47

Post by _delirium » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:24 PM UTC

ruethewhirled wrote: post #3

Permit wrote: post #2

Honest question: Why is Facebook governed, at least in part, by European law? The reason I ask is that the United States has a lot of trouble enforcing its copyright laws abroad (which is good in my opinion), but Facebook and Google seem to bend to European laws regarding privacy and transparency.

I think its to do with Irish tax laws being more favorable to large international companies EDIT see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement

Wonder if tech companies will start to think twice about that particular tax dodge, given the subjecting-yourself-to-EU-jurisdiction tradeoff it involves.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#48

Post by mindstab » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:26 PM UTC

count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

a) Facebook is creating shadow profiles of people who don't use it and definitely in no was agreed to that. b) Same thing with EULA's that go "too far" and other things. Countries make laws to decide what is reasonable. Same with the work force. Thankfully there are things like minimum wage laws that prevent people from getting work for next to no money etc. Sometimes things need regulation. c) Especially with regards to the part about holding onto "deleted data" it means once something is on facebook you can never get rid of it. It has a chance of getting leaked or hacked/stolen or requested by the government etc. Also there are laws about what data can be used about you opt ins and opt outs for people's safety which facebook may be violating

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#49

Post by tonfa » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:28 PM UTC

count wrote: post #40

AlexMuir wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to look beyond the law to what its purpose is - to prevent companies from exploiting your personal information, and to force them to tell you what data they hold. Facebook are exploiting your browser history, without telling you. And are refusing to even own up to it. I don't believe that 99% of Facebook users would tick a box that said 'Please record every webpage I visit and store it for your own future us…

But if you, as a customer of those websites, agree to them knowing you are there, and they chose to share that with others, what right does the government have to prevent that? Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Credit bureaus are significantly different - you have literally no choice in that manner; Facebook isn't providing data to be used in that type of decision though. If so…

> Is that illegal in Europe as well?

Yes. Usually, you cannot build a database (digital or paper) about people without their permission, and without allowing people to get access to their records, and allowing them to get their records deleted.

Then there are exceptions (e.g. you have implicit permission to build a database of the members of an association, or you have a contract with the person and what you record is "adequate"), or cases where you need to get an extra authorization from the data protection authority for example if what you record is sensitive (political affiliations, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.).

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#50

Post by acavailhez » Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:29 PM UTC

count wrote: post #40

AlexMuir wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to look beyond the law to what its purpose is - to prevent companies from exploiting your personal information, and to force them to tell you what data they hold. Facebook are exploiting your browser history, without telling you. And are refusing to even own up to it. I don't believe that 99% of Facebook users would tick a box that said 'Please record every webpage I visit and store it for your own future us…

But if you, as a customer of those websites, agree to them knowing you are there, and they chose to share that with others, what right does the government have to prevent that? Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Credit bureaus are significantly different - you have literally no choice in that manner; Facebook isn't providing data to be used in that type of decision though. If so…

To respond to the last sentence : Yes, things like that can be illegal. As an example, in France it is forbidden to count the number of people who get in & out of a subway at a given station.

I guess it's really a strong difference of culture between Europe and America : laws are made in Europe to make sure that people should not have to make the effort of guessing if a company will mess with their data or not. The company has to make that effort.