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Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

kyivindependent.com

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Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#41

Post by unmole »

Buttons840 wrote: post #36
dua2020 wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Here's an interesting Reddit post from a IT worker in Ukraine regarding Azov: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ti35ls/ukrainian_t... This is not meant to support or refute any part of this HN discussion, I just found it interesting and wanted to link it.

> Actual neo-nazis are hated here much more than anywhere elese since we hate their guts after being ocupied by nazis in WW2 and commies in USSR (almost everyone i know have parents or grandparents who suffered from either or both), so anyone being openly nazi is met with extreme prejudice here.

What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN was posthumously awarded the title Hero of Ukraine.

And the whole Wolfsangel and Black Sun are not neo-Nazi symbols argument is the same as claiming the Confederate battle flag represents Southern heritage.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia...

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#42

Post by acthrowthrow123 »

unmole wrote: post #41
Buttons840 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an interesting Reddit post from a IT worker in Ukraine regarding Azov: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ti35ls/ukrainian_t... This is not meant to support or refute any part of this HN discussion, I just found it interesting and wanted to link it.

> Actual neo-nazis are hated here much more than anywhere elese since we hate their guts after being ocupied by nazis in WW2 and commies in USSR (almost everyone i know have parents or grandparents who suffered from either or both), so anyone being openly nazi is met with extreme prejudice here. What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, t…

> What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN was posthumously awarded the title Hero of Ukraine.

Where is it being celebrated? According to wiki on Stepan Bandera [1]: "In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.[20] A proposal to confer the award on Bandera was rejected by the Ukrainian parliament in August 2019.[21]".

Also keep in mind it even though Bandera was was leader of OUN he was arrested by gestapo in 1941 and was in concentration camp between 1942-1944. Also from wikipedia: "According to Yaroslav Hrytsak, Bandera was not completely aware of events in Ukraine during his internment from the summer of 1941 and had serious differences of opinion with Mykola Lebed, the OUN-B leader who remained in Ukraine and who was one of the chief architects of the massacres of Poles"

I don't think ukrainians also deny massacres of Poles in volhynia - the dispute was if it can be recognized as genocide. On the other hand Poles claims genocide about Katyn massacre [2] by Russsia that Russian denies and try to downplay. The Katyn massacre was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 Polish military officers and intelligentsia carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD.

Edit: Also keep in mind Poles don't keep any grudge to Ukrainians for massacre in Volhyn - something that happened 80 years ago. They are happily helping a lot currently 1.5m ukraininans who were running away from the war. Also no Poles even think about taking back Lviv just because a long time ago it was a Polish city.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#43

Post by acthrowthrow123 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #19
unmole wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline A sea that Russia controls. > Intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. Which can be accomplished by surrounding Mariupol. A besieged city, cut off from any reinforcements and supply lines is hardly a strategic threat.

Kaliningrad is an exclave too and yet it sits in the EU's territory like a sore thumb. Pre-WWII Germans were very unhappy about Danzig. Ukraine as a whole isn't really a strategic threat to a country of size and power of Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to.

> Pre-WWII Germans were very unhappy about Danzig.

Good point but I think 'unhappy' is understatement. Germany did ultimatum to Poland that they want to have a land corridor to Danzig. Poland said no and Germany invaded Poland later on. So there is a lot of similarity in current situation in a way that current Russia == old Germany

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#44

Post by unmole »

acthrowthrow123 wrote: post #42
unmole wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actual neo-nazis are hated here much more than anywhere elese since we hate their guts after being ocupied by nazis in WW2 and commies in USSR (almost everyone i know have parents or grandparents who suffered from either or both), so anyone being openly nazi is met with extreme prejudice here. What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, t…

> What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN was posthumously awarded the title Hero of Ukraine. Where is it being celebrated? According to wiki on Stepan Bandera [1]: "In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.[20] A proposal to confer the award on Bandera was rejected by the Ukrainian parliament in August 2…

> Where is it being celebrated?

Would you consider brandishing the colors of the OUN celebrating them? You could see the red and black flag along side the the flags of Ukraine and EU even during the Euromaidan protests. Too informal? How about granting them pensions and veteran status?

> In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.

On technical grounds because Bandera wasn't a citizen. My point was more about how the Overton window shifted.

Based on your response, I feel I should clarify. I am in no way justifying the Russian invasion or Putin's Denazification bullshit. I am only pointing out that Nobody hates neo-Nazis like we do line is inaccurate.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#45

Post by infamia »

yucky wrote: post #34
seunosewa wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you prove this? That would be a great article.

https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1011528/zelensky-nat... Zelensky has banned all opposition parties that were critical of him in any way, claiming they "were all Russians", which looking at a few of the parties banned is clearly a joke. Zelensky also banned all non-state approved news, forcing all information to be funneled through his one approved network. This was after banning all males age 18-60 from leavi…

This is pretty common in prelude to and during wars. Abraham Lincoln infamously shut down newspapers and arrested journalists and the newspaper's staff.

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/executive-order-ar...

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#46

Post by licebmi__at__ »

estaseuropano wrote: post #35
dua2020 wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Azov is one of the batallions there but your post is totally skewed. If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so? Why should the western media focus on which troops fight on the Ukrainian side if we have a clear aggressor, the invading country of Russia. It is a bullshit narrative to say they are fighting Nazis. they are fighting Ukrainians, some of which may be Nazis,…

> If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so?

As a non white, I would definitely be worried about giving the KKK weapons and a blank card to use violence. Although I can imagine that white people might share my worries.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#47

Post by zo1 »

sph wrote: post #14
samvega_ wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASBMilitary was banned from Twitter. They said their reporters in Ukraine were threatened due to the nature of their reporting, which challenged the Ukrainian narrative we're fed in the West. Of course all Russian-friendly media platforms are banned. The narrative they bring is dangerous to the false image we're creating here in the west. Social media platforms are waging war on "misinformation", removing content and…

You're just saying Western media is hiding the "facts" but not telling us which facts might these be. Do you mean the bullshit reasons Putin has told the Russian people to justify invading Ukraine? Is the West hiding that he really is there to denazify Ukraine? Please tell us what the West doesn't want us to know. Let it be clear, I am quite positive the Western intelligence is doing a massive work of propaganda and…

That's the problem. We don't know if it's BS or real. How am I, halfway across the world, going to know?

The other problem is we've labelled it BS to some degree because we just think Russia is making shit up to justify their actions. Maybe we think that because the claim of a "democratic", almost in NATO country becoming nazi is unthinkable, therefore it must be disinfo and propaganda BS by Putin.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#48

Post by relativ575 »

unmole wrote: post #11
jjfksowpogg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry you're confounded. The way I see it, neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Nazis are a hypothetical danger in the future, Russians are a real danger right now. It doesn't confound me that the mainstream media, which is mostly entertainment and little information anyway, simplifies and focuses only on the most relevant elements o…

> neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases. Mariupol is of little strategic significance. The only plausible explanation for Russia's obsession with the city is for narrative reasons.

> Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases.

Which are those very few? And how are they embedded into national gendarmerie there? Why Russia don't wage war in those few, only Ukraine? maybe because they exist in Russia as well:

https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-stat...

Or a more thorough research:

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1514596/1/Wales.pdf

To quote:

"There has been a large increase in nationalistic and xenophobic attitudes amongst Russian youth, and Russians in general, since the collapse of the Soviet Union. In addition, under Putin nationalism has become a conspicuous political and social force"

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#49

Post by unmole »

relativ575 wrote: post #48
unmole wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases. Mariupol is of little strategic significance. The only plausible explanation for Russia's obsession with the city is for narrative reasons.

> Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases. Which are those very few? And how are they embedded into national gendarmerie there? Why Russia don't wage war in those few, only Ukraine? maybe because they exist in Russia as well: https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-stat... Or a more thorough research: ht…

There are organised neo-Nazi militias in Russia? Neither of the articles you linked to suggest anything of the sort.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#50

Post by klibertp »

estaseuropano wrote: post #35
dua2020 wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Azov is one of the batallions there but your post is totally skewed. If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so? Why should the western media focus on which troops fight on the Ukrainian side if we have a clear aggressor, the invading country of Russia. It is a bullshit narrative to say they are fighting Nazis. they are fighting Ukrainians, some of which may be Nazis,…

> If your country is attacked and the KKK volunteer to fight, will you stop them from doing so?

Yes.

The narrative weights more than actually winning in combat. Allowing Right Sector and Azov Battalion to work with the Army for the past 8 years is akin to willingly giving the guns and ammo to the Russians. I don't care what the very-far-right (or left) does inside the country, but using them in combat with another nation is bad, because they just might win. It's ok if you plan to use Russians to kill off these people, but it's risky. If some of them survive, they will be heroes. Patriots who bled for the country. They will be allowed to do just about anything for the next decade or two.

I understand the need for soldiers. Very-far-X, for any X, are usually people who can and want to fight. Now, they got a chance to fight. And kill. And, in effect, validate their ideology and gain political power afterwards. Once Russians are expelled, the war ends, the unity in the face of a common enemy dissipates, and the Azov Battalion will be legitimized as national heroes, it will lead to conflict with current allies. Poland, most notably, won't accept it. Germany will also be very, very displeased.

It's not worth it. People from Azov Battalion and similar organizations should never be allowed to fight. They should be in support, logistics, communication, work as medics, do just about anything other than fight, kill, and be killed.

In the short-term using far right militia is a perfectly rational choice. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying that, in the long run, using extremists to fight with another nation is going to hurt more than help.

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