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Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

kyivindependent.com

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Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#11

Post by unmole »

jjfksowpogg wrote: post #4
dua2020 wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

I'm sorry you're confounded. The way I see it, neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Nazis are a hypothetical danger in the future, Russians are a real danger right now. It doesn't confound me that the mainstream media, which is mostly entertainment and little information anyway, simplifies and focuses only on the most relevant elements o…

> neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks.

Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases.

Mariupol is of little strategic significance. The only plausible explanation for Russia's obsession with the city is for narrative reasons.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#12

Post by inglor_cz »

unmole wrote: post #11
jjfksowpogg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry you're confounded. The way I see it, neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Nazis are a hypothetical danger in the future, Russians are a real danger right now. It doesn't confound me that the mainstream media, which is mostly entertainment and little information anyway, simplifies and focuses only on the most relevant elements o…

> neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases. Mariupol is of little strategic significance. The only plausible explanation for Russia's obsession with the city is for narrative reasons.

Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline and the Russians seem to be intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. The city and port are literally in the way. This is as strategic as it goes.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#13

Post by unmole »

stanito wrote: post #8
dua2020 wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Has it ever occurred to you that Azov Battalion is nothing more than an element of Russian disinformation campaign aimed at diluting facts and masking Kremlin’s true intentions? The fact that there’s a nationalist movement in Ukraine should not be a surprise given the massacre in Feb 2014, annexation of Crimea, an 8-year war-by-proxy that followed, and now an outright invasion. Painting any desire at establishing a s…

> Has it ever occurred to you that Azov Battalion is nothing more than an element of Russian disinformation campaign aimed at diluting facts and masking Kremlin’s true intentions?

What are these, alternative facts?

The US Congress was troubled enough by the Azov Battalion that aid to them was expressly prohibited way back in 2018. Is the US Congress a Russian front too?

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#14

Post by sph »

samvega_ wrote: post #10
seunosewa wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you prove this? That would be a great article.

ASBMilitary was banned from Twitter. They said their reporters in Ukraine were threatened due to the nature of their reporting, which challenged the Ukrainian narrative we're fed in the West. Of course all Russian-friendly media platforms are banned. The narrative they bring is dangerous to the false image we're creating here in the west. Social media platforms are waging war on "misinformation", removing content and…

You're just saying Western media is hiding the "facts" but not telling us which facts might these be. Do you mean the bullshit reasons Putin has told the Russian people to justify invading Ukraine? Is the West hiding that he really is there to denazify Ukraine?

Please tell us what the West doesn't want us to know.

Let it be clear, I am quite positive the Western intelligence is doing a massive work of propaganda and happy to be able to silence RT. But this doesn't justify and validate the bullshit story Putin has been telling the world to invade a sovereign country.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#15

Post by FrenchDevRemote »

samvega_ wrote: post #5
dua2020 wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

It's part of the information warfare camapign of western media. News media challenging the narrative are being banned or threatened into submission.

I think it would be counter productive to bring attention to this.

They're a very small percentage of Ukraine population.

If ANY country got invaded some of the soldiers defending against invaders are going to be fascists, it's inevitable. If the US got invaded and you wanted to throw out the fascists out of the army you wouldn't have much of an army lol.

Defending against an invasion from a foreign country is not really the time to discuss political ideologies, bullets are bullets, once the russians are out they can go back to making less than 5% of votes...

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#16

Post by inglor_cz »

stanito wrote: post #8
dua2020 wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Has it ever occurred to you that Azov Battalion is nothing more than an element of Russian disinformation campaign aimed at diluting facts and masking Kremlin’s true intentions? The fact that there’s a nationalist movement in Ukraine should not be a surprise given the massacre in Feb 2014, annexation of Crimea, an 8-year war-by-proxy that followed, and now an outright invasion. Painting any desire at establishing a s…

Let me begin with the info that I am all for Ukraine and I hope Russia loses their war of aggression badly. Putin's regime is the closest that we have to the Third Reich and/or Stalin's USSR in Europe right now.

But I still cannot help but notice how the Western sensibilities changed from "Punch a Nazi!" (in 2020, when most of those weren't even true Nazis) to "Let's not speak of those actual SS-symbol-sporting troops because they are fighting for the good cause now."

Azov isn't representative of the entire Ukraine, no. That is Russian propaganda. It can be dissolved afterwards, yes. But they are on the far end of the far right, no mistake about that. Ukraine has a troubled history with its minorities, many of the guards in the extermination camps were Ukrainians, Polish minority was once targeted etc. People like Stepan Bandera should never be worshipped.

If Ukraine is to join the EU in the future, Azov battalion must be disposed of, much like Irgun in early Israel was. Hopefully without any bloodshed, but their toying with SS symbols goes too far. Even Poland and the Czech Republic, quite staunch allies of Ukraine, wouldn't tolerate this kind of shit being carried openly in a fellow EU country once the war is over.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#17

Post by unmole »

inglor_cz wrote: post #12
unmole wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases. Mariupol is of little strategic significance. The only plausible explanation for Russia's obsession with the city is for narrative reasons.

Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline and the Russians seem to be intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. The city and port are literally in the way. This is as strategic as it goes.

> Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline

A sea that Russia controls.

> Intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk.

Which can be accomplished by surrounding Mariupol. A besieged city, cut off from any reinforcements and supply lines is hardly a strategic threat.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#18

Post by darthrupert »

stanito wrote: post #8
dua2020 wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Has it ever occurred to you that Azov Battalion is nothing more than an element of Russian disinformation campaign aimed at diluting facts and masking Kremlin’s true intentions? The fact that there’s a nationalist movement in Ukraine should not be a surprise given the massacre in Feb 2014, annexation of Crimea, an 8-year war-by-proxy that followed, and now an outright invasion. Painting any desire at establishing a s…

That might be, but I find it extremely odd how pro-Ukraine subreddits keep showing videos of well-known neo-nazis as heroes.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#19

Post by inglor_cz »

unmole wrote: post #17
inglor_cz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline and the Russians seem to be intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. The city and port are literally in the way. This is as strategic as it goes.

> Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline A sea that Russia controls. > Intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. Which can be accomplished by surrounding Mariupol. A besieged city, cut off from any reinforcements and supply lines is hardly a strategic threat.

Kaliningrad is an exclave too and yet it sits in the EU's territory like a sore thumb.

Pre-WWII Germans were very unhappy about Danzig.

Ukraine as a whole isn't really a strategic threat to a country of size and power of Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to.

Re: Ukraine reaches breaking point in Russia’s war

#20

Post by unmole »

inglor_cz wrote: post #19
unmole wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mariupol is on the Azov Sea coastline A sea that Russia controls. > Intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk. Which can be accomplished by surrounding Mariupol. A besieged city, cut off from any reinforcements and supply lines is hardly a strategic threat.

Kaliningrad is an exclave too and yet it sits in the EU's territory like a sore thumb. Pre-WWII Germans were very unhappy about Danzig. Ukraine as a whole isn't really a strategic threat to a country of size and power of Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to.

> Kaliningrad is an exclave too and yet it sits in the EU's territory like a sore thumb.

I don't think anyone is really too bothered about Kaliningrad. Are they? It's not like Germany wants it back or anything.

> Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to.

Oh, I don't disagree with it this at all. But the only way Putin can back down while still saving face is by pretending that the invasion actually acomplished something. If you wanted to justify the invasion on the grounds of Denazificatiom, it helps to take over the base of the only unit that can tenably be called neo-Nazi.

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