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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#41

Post by darksaints »

voisin wrote: post #16
bjoli wrote: post #9

Well then, Congratulations Russia! You have just given the Swedish NATO-movement more support than they could have ever mustered themselves! I have always been very sceptical of NATO membership, but the last month I changed opinion.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

NATO was made for this kind of mutual defense. Unfortunately, NATO is a massive political force that can also be abused for political ends, and no country wants to commit their armed forces to be used as pawns in someone else's war.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#42

Post by ledauphin »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #10
globalise83 wrote: post #7

Now is probably the only opportunity they will get. With much of Russia's army tied up in Ukraine they could join in secret overnight and in the morning the rest of NATO could land huge numbers of airborne reinforcements and the whole thing would be a fait accompli. The only response Putin could make would be to trigger WW3.

Making triggering WW3 his only remaining choice does not sound like a good idea

No it doesn't, but at some point you have to consider the possibility that Putin isn't sane or rational in the way you would hope the person in charge of a major part of the world's nuclear arsenal would be.

And if he is not sane, then it would be equally insane for the west to keep giving into his demands, given that we cannot then expect him to stop making them at any foreseeable point.

No one "wants" WW3, much like no one "wanted" WW2 or WW1. But history has proven time and time again that simply backing away doesn't _necessarily_ reduce the chances that the war will occur.

I am very, very curious how this is causing western intelligence agencies to update their analyses of Putin's psyche.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#43

Post by GoodJokes »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26
prettygood wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very delicate situation that can't be resolved by just sending troops and fighting. Neither the US nor Europe wants to have another world war. Definitely not now nuclear weapons are much more powerful.

I'm pretty sure that we're in World War III. We're just trying to pretend that we're not. We're at least at the buildup to it.

No post body was provided.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#44

Post by tyre »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26
prettygood wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very delicate situation that can't be resolved by just sending troops and fighting. Neither the US nor Europe wants to have another world war. Definitely not now nuclear weapons are much more powerful.

I'm pretty sure that we're in World War III. We're just trying to pretend that we're not. We're at least at the buildup to it.

This is not a world war. The fighting is specific to a single area.

The Vietnam War involved at least double the number of involved countries and wasn’t considered a world war.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#45

Post by watwut »

sharken wrote: post #23
belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

Yes, this is a very abrupt awakening from the general idea that Corona was handled well and thinking we can do everything. Here is Putin with the might of Russia at his disposal, a very different challenge altogether. As you, i fear that the leaders are not geared towards this kind of conflict at all. I would consider calling Putins bluff by accepting Finland and Sweden as NATO members. But only if the two countries…

What does this have to do with Corona, exactly?

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#46

Post by ceejayoz »

zucked wrote: post #27
voisin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

NATO has not been viewed favorably in recent years, and some of it is for good reason. As much as I dislike Trump, he is right that many NATO members don't contribute their fair share. Many countries, even wealthy, highly developed ones, are missing the 2% target by a wide margin. On the name and shame highlight reel is: Norway, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the list goes on. I suspect we will se…

The target date for the 2% is 2024. They haven't missed it yet, although several are likely to.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#47

Post by causi »

systemvoltage wrote: post #28
causi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seven hundred billion dollars a year and we can't even defend the weak unless it looks profitable on the balance sheet. Never have I been more ashamed to be American than I was yesterday.

Quoted post unavailable.

Would defending Ukraine with US soldiers be good for the US? Absolutely not. The best outcome for the US is if Ukraine turns into a Vietnam for Russia for the next couple decades, with high casualties for the Russians and high casualties among Ukrainian civilians to keep the whole world strongly against Russia.

That doesn't make it right, though. The right thing to do is to help other people even when it doesn't benefit you.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#48

Post by zajio1am »

iso1631 wrote: post #15
cjbgkagh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making triggering WW3 his only remaining choice does not sound like a good idea

When do the billionaires backing him decide they don't want to rule over a nuclear wasteland? Can they even stop him?

> billionaires backing him

I think that you misunderstood their relationship. It is less 'billionaires backing him' and more 'billionares who are obedient to him, so they do not end with poisoned briefs'.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#49

Post by notapenny »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #10
globalise83 wrote: post #7

Now is probably the only opportunity they will get. With much of Russia's army tied up in Ukraine they could join in secret overnight and in the morning the rest of NATO could land huge numbers of airborne reinforcements and the whole thing would be a fait accompli. The only response Putin could make would be to trigger WW3.

Making triggering WW3 his only remaining choice does not sound like a good idea

Letting him threaten and invade any country he wants because he doesn't want said country to do something that isn't in accordance with his will doesn't seem like a good idea either.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#50

Post by 988747 »

Ekaros wrote: post #34
travisgriggs wrote: post #24

We seem to be at an impass. NATO exists to help people not feel threatened by Russia. Putin has decided that the mere existence of a real NATO is a threat to Russia (he's fine with a paper tiger institution that is all but imaginary). It's like a European version of 1860 in the US. As an American, I'd be (emotionally, but not rationally) glad to just put an end to 100 years of Russian aggression, mostly because I'm a…

It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.

Well, if Russia didn't act like a total asshole towards all their neighbors then maybe some of them would like to be their allies. The fact that Baltic states or Ukraine prefer to side with a "well known aggressor" instead of their "Slavic brothers" from Russia really tells you everything. Putin has no one to blame for that but himself.
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