Why I didn’t apologize for that Yale Law School email • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I didn’t apologize for that Yale Law School email

#41

Post by dariusj18 » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #33

dariusj18 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"pejorative and racist language" does not equal being racist. The article seems pretty clear that the author had no idea the language had racial roots (if they can be called that given it's kinda racist to assume that a drug den is race related) and therefore they were not being racist. I take that at face value because I also only had a modern surface level knowledge of the term "trap house" from similar contexts. I…

It's possible to say racist things without intending to be racist. In fact, it's extremely likely given how much of American culture is pretty firmly grounded in a racist history; a lot of common sayings started as racially-charged stereotypes. So these racist sayings are propagated forward by people innocently unaware of their origins and implied meaning. Whether one, having learned that history, changes one's choic…

> It's possible to say racist things without intending to be racist

This is still using loose language to try and equate two things that are not equal, "saying racist things" is still not the same thing as "being racist". Though it's getting closer, intent and context definitely matters.

ex. I use the term "black" to describe to people when applicable. There was a blip of time when that was a racist thing to say, some people probably still think it would be better to say "african-american" and might think the language is racist. But my use of the term is not because I am being racist.

The issue here is that there are those who would abuse good faith and nuance, but I generally think it's pretty obvious when it happens, and this seems to not be one of those times. It can be fatiguing to continually need to use critical thinking, but it's not something we can just stop doing if we want to keep progressing.

Re: Why I didn’t apologize for that Yale Law School email

#42

Post by shadowgovt » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

dariusj18 wrote: post #41

shadowgovt wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to say racist things without intending to be racist. In fact, it's extremely likely given how much of American culture is pretty firmly grounded in a racist history; a lot of common sayings started as racially-charged stereotypes. So these racist sayings are propagated forward by people innocently unaware of their origins and implied meaning. Whether one, having learned that history, changes one's choic…

> It's possible to say racist things without intending to be racist This is still using loose language to try and equate two things that are not equal, "saying racist things" is still not the same thing as "being racist". Though it's getting closer, intent and context definitely matters. ex. I use the term "black" to describe to people when applicable. There was a blip of time when that was a racist thing to say, som…

> "saying racist things" is still not the same thing as "being racist"

I think whether that assertion is true hinges on whether one is of the opinion that there is meaningful difference between one's actions and the content of one's character or whether "ye shall know them by their fruits," as it were.

But even if we use the duality approach of separating action from character: if one does a racist thing unintentionally, then given the opportunity to do so, does not apologize, I would be understanding of those who choose to believe that the action was a reflection of the content of the actor's heart.

Apologies are something we do when we've done wrong, after all. Whether the wrong was intended.

Re: Why I didn’t apologize for that Yale Law School email

#43

Post by yeezyseezy » Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

I mean this sincerely, do public apologies ever help in situations like this? Anecdotally, I always seem to see them backfire as insincere or insufficient.

Re: Why I didn’t apologize for that Yale Law School email

#44

Post by kcplate » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 12:56 AM UTC

marvinvz wrote: post #13

As a confused european: this one word can cause "harm" in the USA?

Well, if you are specifically looking for a word, any word, that might be loosely connected to your marginalized community that was spoken by someone who follows an opposing political tradition..then “apparently”.

I thought his dissection of the word “corny” as a possible slur to his Native American background was a perfect illustration of how ridiculous his situation truly was.

Re: Why I didn’t apologize for that Yale Law School email

#45

Post by dang » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

ssklash wrote: post #4

Funny that someone in law school doesn't seem to grasp that free speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar hell. That's exactly what we don't want here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Why I didn’t apologize for that Yale Law School email

#46

Post by dang » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #11

ssklash wrote: post #4

Funny that someone in law school doesn't seem to grasp that free speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

You serious? Did you read his email that was allegedly so offensive the dean drafted an apology letter for him? I rarely use this term, but – clown world. Absolute clown world. You are one of the clowns, congrats.

You've been repeatedly posting flamewar comments and aggressive attacks. We ban accounts that do that. I actually just banned you for this, but then looked closer at comment history and decided to undo that and warn you instead.

You can't attack other users regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. It's also not ok to use HN for ideological and political flamewar. If you would please stop doing these things and use HN as intended from now on, we'd appreciate it. The rules are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Why I didn’t apologize for that Yale Law School email

#47

Post by TechBro8615 » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #46

TechBro8615 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You serious? Did you read his email that was allegedly so offensive the dean drafted an apology letter for him? I rarely use this term, but – clown world. Absolute clown world. You are one of the clowns, congrats.

You've been repeatedly posting flamewar comments and aggressive attacks. We ban accounts that do that. I actually just banned you for this, but then looked closer at comment history and decided to undo that and warn you instead. You can't attack other users regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. It's also not ok to use HN for ideological and political flamewar. If you would please stop doing these thi…

Well, I appreciate the warning I suppose. I created this pseudonym to post (what I consider valid but) semi-controversial comments that some find politically untenable, so perhaps I overcommitted to the mission. Although I think you’ll find I rarely start a political discussion in a non-political thread – I’m keenly aware of the risk of polluting the board with that which is why I try to join existing politics threads rather than start them.

FWIW, when my most recently flagged comment has 16 upvotes, perhaps there is something to it. On the other hand, this one you’re replying to was aggressive but I think you’ll find it to be an outlier, and that I have sparse history of personal (let alone “aggressive”) attacks against anyone who isn’t a public figure or trying to be.

Anyway, keep up the good work, I’ll avoid the personal attacks. But I’m not gonna change the perspective I bring to these discussions, so if that’s the issue you can just ban me now.