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Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#41

> 'happier but jobless' That's a very misleading title. > Universal basic income, or UBI, means that everyone gets a set monthly income, regardless of means. The Finnish trial was a bit different That's a huge difference. It encourages some of the unemployed people to stay unemployed. That's called "poverty trap". This was not real UBI. Also, a 2-year long trial can be very misleading. People take very different choi…

Very true.

There's always the fact that Finland isn't exactly poverty-stricken as a country.

I would like to see this repeated on some real impoverished communities, with a guarantee of income for life, to see if they become more productive as a result.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#42
post #10

So that if they are happier then that IS success. Job or no job is irrelevant.

It is absolutely relevant.

That money isn't just pulled from the ether. Another citizen worked to produce that value which is distributed through UBI.

One happy person at the expense of someone else is not success.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#43
post #15
post #10

So that if they are happier then that IS success. Job or no job is irrelevant.

Unfortunately the prevailing ideology dictates that if you're not working you are worthless and you should not feel happy.

It's a tough sell you gotta admit it. That money came from someone making an effort (even if it was in form of large [reluctant]corporate taxes).

Also slacking (I am half a slacker on the way to ~zero) is toxic on the long run.

I always thought of universal income as way to allow me to grow without a burden. Learning, helping, producing (whether art, tools, ...).

It's supposed to help strengthen the social tissue.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#44

I think it's human nature to do a little as possible for the most reward. If someone is giving you money to literally do nothing, then you're likely going to do..nothing!

I always have a really hard time relating to where this incredibly negative sentiment about people comes from. It seems like people look at times when other people are "lazy" and extrapolate it to all of humanity, but I think the perception of "lazy" in this context is just what it looks like when a person hates the work they're forced to do and/or is suffering and unhappy due to financial trouble. I feel like most p…

I'm far from the group that thinks everyone not working is "lazy", but I can understand the situation: If you find someone that is legit being lazy (best examples are clear fraud with no mitigating reasoning) you feel outraged and "stolen from". And it does happen - I worked for Virginia state social services when a hurricane came through, and the department set up centers where you could get fast approval for food stamps - you had to fill out a few (3, i think?) lines about income, and your actual eligibility would figured out later - if you weren't eligible, you'd owe the money back, but the idea was to help people that had lost their food, their jobs, etc immediately.

Months later the word came back about fraud. And it was a doozy. The program was a general success, but there were SO MANY fraud cases. And I don't mean "missed a number" or "didn't understand that this asset mattered" or even "struggling but not legally struggling enough" - I mean blatant, totally unnecessary, how-are-you-not-ashamed fraud. As a liberal I found it shocking.

It's easy to allow this outrage to count for more than the actual money is worth, to ignore the many, many legit needy cases where people WEREN'T being like this.

I read once that the true difference between a liberal and conservative is not about compassion - both can be fully compassionate - but whether they are more outraged by someone in need being neglected or by someone not in need taking advantage of the offer of help.

I also think that most people don't actually see either side of this coin - they don't see the people in need getting help, nor those that abuse it. They hear about it and their emotions take hold (in either direction). And most of them, regardless of reaction, aren't hearing the actual truth.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#45
In Ontario Canada, our outgoing government tried basic income as well. It increased unemployment in the pilot cities. So our new government eliminated basic income quickly because it was the opposite of the general trend of all other cities.

The reality is that people don't need money. Money is important but what people need is a purpose and goals. Which a basic income system does not provide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS5WYp5xmvI

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#46
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I've never heard that angle.

I definitely did hear it as once facet of why UBI could be good. Right now, in some places there are people who will lose benefits (I forget which variety) if their income goes above a certain point, so they are disincentivized to seek a better job -- as it would net them less income. One thing I recall reading about UBI was that it removed that _condition_, and so there would be no incentive not to get a job (other…

Those places would be the US and many anglo-saxon influenced countries. Where it is seen as if you are unemployed then it is a failing on your part, not the job market or any other factors. If you do find a job it better pay a living wage and it better pay now. The state will pull benefits almost immediately once your paperwork goes through. And if the job is temporary or seasonal be prepared to start at square one to resume benefits payments.

The incentives are really screwed up. They do want you to use it and if you do they don't want you to leave it.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#47

So, basically the article says that unemployed people who received a basic income stipend of $685/month weren't any more likely to get jobs within 2 years than a control group who didn't. This doesn't seem very surprising to me – if anything, I would expect people on UBI to be less likely to get jobs, and this study seems like evidence against that.

The control group also got money. Just via more paperwork. UBI for Finland is more about reducing bureaucracy and social security errors.

Yes, the missing context here is the idea that UBI will be financed by cutting existing social services.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#48
I still see some big issues with universal basic income, and would appreciate one of its supporters responding to some of them:

Cost. $3.8 trillion by many estimates. That's nearly 20% of America's GDP. How is it possible to pull this much money out of the American economy without crashing it?

Scope. I am of the opinion that one of the beauties of federalism is that policies can be tested first at the state level before we commit our entire nation. Why would a national government do this?

Necessity. I don't think we need to be paying anyone who makes over 50k (maybe not the right number, but there should be a cutoff). That just takes money away from those who need it.

If a supporter of UBI can respond, I'd like to discuss possible concerns and benefits.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#49
> The Finnish trial was a bit different, as it focused on people who were unemployed

I think UBI would help people who are already employed in jobs that they hate, to find/invent meaningful jobs. A lot of employed people are miserable but just surviving doing things that they hate (because that's the only thing that pays and so are chained to their misery).

I think real UBI would create strong bottom up economies and get rid of value extractors, intermediaries and schemers. It would also help people move out of big cities back to rural areas where things are not so expensive

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#50

> The aim was to see if a guaranteed safety net would help people find jobs I'm confused, was that ever the expected goal of basic income?

Yes, as it lowers marginal tax rates. Currently with welfare, you have a very high marginal tax rate. You earn an additional $20,000 say, but lose the $10,000 you had with welfare. 50% marginal tax rate. Even higher if there's some actual tax on that $20,000.

If there was basic income where you still kept the $10,000, you would have a 0% marginal rate.

It's not clear how the finns designed their system. But Milton Friedman was actually for a form of basic income instead of social support, for this reason.

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