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US companies giving in to pressure from China

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Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#41

Post by excalibur »

jasonlotito wrote: post #27
ndiscussion wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is, but what does that have to do with the nature of the comment?

Considering the blatant lies and misinformation being spread in the comment, the fact that it's a fresh, new account makes it suspect. Couple the two together makes it for a comment that doesn't honestly want to drive good conversation.

It was leading the discussion in a decidedly political direction, which was why I only responded with an observation about the community experience of the account.

It's not even that he's lying or citing bad data. It's the conclusions he's drawing from it that I find suspect. He seems to be closely mirroring the talking points of a certain controversial public figure. A figure who only seems to be bothered by the wholesale corporate exploitation of the working class when it benefits a foreign country.

Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#42

Post by qiqing »

tony101 wrote: post #28
qiqing wrote: post #23

An excerpt, which sounds shockingly similar to GDPR compliance, listed as an example: "APPLE, AGAIN That wasn’t the only issue Apple faced in the country. Earlier this year, Apple moved Chinese iCloud data to a state-run company after new laws were enacted requiring foreign companies to store data locally."

The difference is that in the case of China (and Russia), requiring local data storage is intended to enable government oppression. EU countries have much better human rights records than China and Russia do.

Do you believe it is morally wrong for China and Russia to pass their own GDPR-esque legislation? And for corporations to comply with said legislation?

Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#43

Post by mehblahwhatevs »

deeg wrote: post #25

I look at it this way: change is not going to be forced on the Chinese government by US corporations. That can only come from the Chinese population (with possibly a small assist from foreign governments). So what's the best way to help their citizens with changing the government? I believe the best way is to make them prosperous and informed; people who are hungry or worried about their job are less likely to questi…

This thinking is common that more middle-upper class people won't put up with a dictatorial regime.

But isn't Singapore kind of a counter to that?

Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#44

Post by sykhic »

394852034 wrote: post #29
sykhic wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's increasingly hard to justify not doing business in China for moral reasons whilst doing business in the U.S. If the moral high ground could indisputably be claimed by the U.S. then peoples' views would be different. Now it's not a big deal that Google wants to do business in China since it's doing business in the U.S. It's not necessarily that morality has gone down in the U.S; it's that trust in the morality of…

[flagged]

I was born and raised in the Canal Zone. While it was still an American territory. Went to American schools and was taught about the U.S. I too once had the patriotic fervor you display. Then I came to the U.S. and slowly realized that reality did not match what I was taught.

I do not sweep under the rug the ills our society and government have done. Nor do I diminish their accomplishments. Indeed I don't do this for any nation now that I understand that the blind patriotism I was raised with is a destructive thing.

Empires come and go. The American empire is in decline. It may rise again to greater heights and glory. It might not. Eventually it will be replaced. There is no longer any moral superiority in our leadership.

It seems foolish to decry Google doing business in China whilst importing billions and billions of dollars of Chinese made goods. Google works with the American government to do mass surveillance on its citizens. I'm not going to get in a tizzy if they decide to do the same in China.

Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#45

Post by mistermann »

Leary wrote: post #34
mobmobmob wrote: post #13

These US corporate elites are selling out US and the rest of the democratic free world in order to meet shareholder's expectations (and of course, MONEY!). And giving into a dictatorship and giving that dictatorship jobs, money, capital, knowledge, and power. That dictatorship now has imprisoned close to 1 million people in Xinjiang. Shame on you, Sundar Pichai. At least when Google was lead by Erich Schmidt, Google…

The US was not engaged with China prior to 1971, how did that work out for the United States and for China? Over the long-term, engagement with China has led to more personal freedom for the Chinese. Trade with China has helped lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, while helping with the prosperity of the United States. True the corporations are reaping most of the benefits, but that's natural under a f…

Many good things for most parties have come out of China's greater involvement in the world economy, this much is true.

However, there are also several plausible, non-trivial concerns that seem like they should be included in a comprehensive conversation, but are often left out. Mobmobmob mentioned a few specific ones, do you have an opinion on the severity of the risks he mentioned?

Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#46

Post by mistermann »

deeg wrote: post #25

I look at it this way: change is not going to be forced on the Chinese government by US corporations. That can only come from the Chinese population (with possibly a small assist from foreign governments). So what's the best way to help their citizens with changing the government? I believe the best way is to make them prosperous and informed; people who are hungry or worried about their job are less likely to questi…

I wish all people around the world the best. But with respect to China, I'm rather concerned that rather than the Chinese population forcing change upon their government, another possible outcome is that the Chinese government forces undesirable and possibly dramatic change upon the rest of the world. To me, this outcome seems not just possible, but extremely likely unless something major changes.

Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#47

Post by repsilat »

mehblahwhatevs wrote: post #43
deeg wrote: post #25

I look at it this way: change is not going to be forced on the Chinese government by US corporations. That can only come from the Chinese population (with possibly a small assist from foreign governments). So what's the best way to help their citizens with changing the government? I believe the best way is to make them prosperous and informed; people who are hungry or worried about their job are less likely to questi…

This thinking is common that more middle-upper class people won't put up with a dictatorial regime. But isn't Singapore kind of a counter to that?

Singaporeans at least have the right to leave. Chinese people aren't even free to migrate internally.

Singaporean internet access is significantly freer than Chinese. Singapore has freer markets, more rule of law.

They don't have a real democracy, and there are restrictions on speech, but it's absolutely crazy to equate it with China. If China turns into Singapore as it gets richer it'll be a humanitarian miracle.

Unfortunately I share your skepticism. Not because of Singapore as a counterexample, though, but because of China-to-date. They haven't been liberalising, they have been getting less free, more nationalistic and so on. The Party has increased its control on every part of life and all levers of government. I can't see why that trend should reverse.

Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#48

Post by d0100 »

qiqing wrote: post #42
tony101 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that in the case of China (and Russia), requiring local data storage is intended to enable government oppression. EU countries have much better human rights records than China and Russia do.

Do you believe it is morally wrong for China and Russia to pass their own GDPR-esque legislation? And for corporations to comply with said legislation?

Motive and outcome are valid measures for deciding if something is moral

Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#49

Post by jryan49 »

Afforess wrote: post #16
Analemma_ wrote: post #2

It's not just companies, it's US people too. The original HN thread on this subject ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17660872 ) had a truly depressing percentage of comments saying "No big deal" using some combination of whataboutism, false equivalence and simple fatalism. I seem to remember that when Google first pulled out of China the reaction among HN types was much more positive; what has happened to our m…

Uh, morals? What does ethics have to do with Google operating their search business in China? I'm confused why I am supposed to be outraged. I don't have any particularly strong feelings about censorship in foreign countries - how does what the Chinese government do affect American speech? I guess censorship in general is _bad_, but it's purely an internal, domestic matter. The Chinese aren't scrubbing American textb…

What if China takes over the world? What if a ton of countries that act this way start appearing and people in our country start using them as examples to follow. I feel like these things are already happening, that's why I care. When parts of the world get worse off, it eventually will get worse for all of us.

Re: US companies giving in to pressure from China

#50

Post by jryan49 »

sbinthree wrote: post #10
se30b wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hacker news has been overtaken by evil insect-like people that hate freedom, and goodness itself.

This statement is delusional in the context of Google offering a censored search product. People in China who mind will leave China, most don't mind according to Confucianism values, this policy is not going to change because nerds in North America disagree with it, and neither is Google.

I don't think poor people from China don't have the ability or money to leave China. The poor of any country usually have limited mobility. Most people in China are poor. Also, it's not like the world has open borders, and people can move to another country without huge efforts.
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