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The Masculine Mystique of T

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Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#41

Post by wycs »

woodruffw wrote: post #38
wycs wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I find those are extremely shocking and offensive.

And, more importantly, just plain incorrect. We praise people for speaking truth to power, not for twisting the truth to fit a reactionary worldview.

We should praise people for speaking truth. Power has nothing to do with it. Cognitive genomics will confirm or disconfirm all the really shocking and offensive stuff very shortly. I have my priors and you have yours. We will see how it pans out.

In general we should do our best not to be offended by descriptive claims and hypotheses, as reality is not constrained by ideology, though we may pretend it is.

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#42

Post by chillacy »

solarkraft wrote: post #37
chillacy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the winner also riots and wrecks their city. Actually a lot of the time.

This is possibly related to testosterone levels/heightened confidence as well. I don't see many riots, though. At least in my kind of football (soccer).

I was reminded of that by the recent news in France after they won the world cup https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/989289/world-cup-final-...

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#43

Post by tranchms »

oceanghost wrote: post #34
tranchms wrote: post #21

Not to be critical, but I find this article to be uncompelling. I began working out when I was 13. After college post 2010 I experimented with Testosterone, from 200mg a week to 600mg a week. It’s a whole underground culture. My own experiences were exactly like the stereotype— increased libido, increased muscle mass, increase strength, increase mood swings. The sex drive is palpable. It’s ferocoiously potent, increa…

This. I have done many a cycle in my life, and of things far stronger than test. I hate that I only feel like the person I want to be on cycle. It speaks to the fragility and impermanence of the mind that a simple injection can make you a completely different person. If you've never had your mind altered, you cannot understand how fragile your self-identity is.

I’m with you.

It’s been a struggle to reconcile life on it and off it.

For six years I pinned. EW or EOD or ED. I got tired of it. It was consuming, and I felt like an addict.

Testosterone is a carnal experience.

I got tired of the mood swings. I felt amazing but, unstable. Certain things were not stable. My relationships specifically.

I’m off it now, and I have to say, life is not as colorful, not as intense, not as visceral, not as exciting.

My sex drive is average.

I retained a lot of muscle mass. I still look good, and healthy. But I am a larger human being. I don’t see that changing too much. I’m not as lean. My hair has receded faster than it otherwise would have if I never took it. I have more bodyhair, specifically the back and chest and stomach, which isn’t all that sexy. I used to shave it. But I don’t even care anymore. Take me as I am.

I miss the pump. The fullness. The excitement. The leanness. The vascularity. The ability to have sex 10 times in a row. The euphoric organisms that were like pure ecstasy. I loved sex.

The endless energy.

But I also felt like it was all artificial. That I was not really this person without it. And it was self obsessive. Mostly worried about what other people thought. It was so carnal, so... superficial. Physical.

That didn’t leave me feeling too great.

I think about getting back on. I’d look better. I’d feel better. It’s like the best antidepressant, if you can handle occasional mood swings and intense reactions.

But I’m happy. I’m calmer. My life is more consistent. The highs aren’t are high, but neither are the lows. The relationship with my girlfriend has gotten more stable. The fact that I’ve had a girlfriend more than a year is a testament to being off.

I’m focusing on my intellectual pursuits once again.

Maybe when I’m approaching 40 I’ll consider TRT again.

Until then, I’m okay with the way things are, and the way I am.

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#44

Post by iguy »

woodruffw wrote: post #38
wycs wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I find those are extremely shocking and offensive.

And, more importantly, just plain incorrect. We praise people for speaking truth to power, not for twisting the truth to fit a reactionary worldview.

You have an infallible source for this correctness? Offensive to some, sure, not NYT material... that's OK.

We have a lot to learn about viruses. And viral-like ways in which life uses genetic material, that don't quite fit into how we're used to thinking. Probably he's wrong about this idea, but generating lots of such hypotheses & finding ways to test them seems like a great idea.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16139798

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#45

Post by ttctciyf »

solarkraft wrote: post #25
ttctciyf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever testosterone comes up, I always think of the study showing testosterone levels change in sports fans according to whether their preferred team wins or loses[1]. The interest for me is not so much in the question of testosterone and dominance, but more to do with how mere perception of events whose meaning is entirely culturally determined can mediate hormone levels in this way. Winning at football is very di…

Winning at football is exactly like winning a fight. The member of the winning tribe will feel more confident that they will be able to win the next fight/feel more dominant, which correlates well with testosterone levels in my mind.

Understanding you've won at football is quite different to understanding you've won a fight.

Compare two cats fighting and knowing who's won to two cats playing football and knowing who's won :)

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#46

Post by woodruffw »

iguy wrote: post #44
woodruffw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, more importantly, just plain incorrect. We praise people for speaking truth to power, not for twisting the truth to fit a reactionary worldview.

You have an infallible source for this correctness? Offensive to some, sure, not NYT material... that's OK. We have a lot to learn about viruses. And viral-like ways in which life uses genetic material, that don't quite fit into how we're used to thinking. Probably he's wrong about this idea, but generating lots of such hypotheses & finding ways to test them seems like a great idea. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?…

Science isn't about infallibility, it's about overwhelming bodies of evidence supporting a conclusion inductively.

There is overwhelming evidence, anthropological and biological, that homosexuality is (at least!) as old as genetically modern humans. There is no evidence of any sort of exceptional origin for homosexuality in humans, especially in light of homosexual behavior in other species. The very idea of a dual (or multiple) emergence of homosexuality across species violates one of the central dogmas of genetics: that the parsimonious explanation is always preferable.

Spitting out a bunch of low quality hypotheses and then building the rest of your career on them (as Cochran did with his claims about Ashkenazi intelligence) is not how good science is done.

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#47

Post by iguy »

woodruffw wrote: post #46
iguy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have an infallible source for this correctness? Offensive to some, sure, not NYT material... that's OK. We have a lot to learn about viruses. And viral-like ways in which life uses genetic material, that don't quite fit into how we're used to thinking. Probably he's wrong about this idea, but generating lots of such hypotheses & finding ways to test them seems like a great idea. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?…

Science isn't about infallibility, it's about overwhelming bodies of evidence supporting a conclusion inductively. There is overwhelming evidence, anthropological and biological, that homosexuality is (at least!) as old as genetically modern humans. There is no evidence of any sort of exceptional origin for homosexuality in humans, especially in light of homosexual behavior in other species. The very idea of a dual (…

I think you may be responding to a stronger, clearly wrong, hypothesis... in which some virus landed on Haight-Ashbury in 1965? And this is kind-of what I'm arguing against -- ruling out a whole line of thought because you take offence at some version.

Every STD has a massive incentive to alter sexual behaviour. Some do: Syphilis makes you horny. And we probably haven't found all of them: if AIDS was no worse for you than Toxoplasmosis, would we have tracked it down? So maybe a whole lot of sexual behaviour is influenced by viruses, maybe in lots of animals. Where would you look to test this? At behaviours which don't seem obviously motivated by standard Darwinian concerns.

Certainly this is a tentative idea, nobody should get too attached to it. Probably there are people saying this more politely than Cochran. Some of us like the blunt style, it wastes less time.

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#48

Post by asdffdsa321 »

lambdaphagy wrote: post #5
toomchsauce wrote: post #3

Summary: Testosterone doesn’t have well-understood effects because they are complex and affect individuals differently. It’s more like a placebo and symbol of artificial expectations society has about what is “masculine”. The demand for T is a sign that society is sick.

Testosterone levels in the West have declined by about a factor of two over the past few decades ( https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434 ). Maybe society is indeed sick.

I mean, who probably has more testosterone: the guy sitting at a desk typing for 8 hours a day, or the guy who just impaled an enemy with a spear and savagely roars

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#49

Post by oceanghost »

tranchms wrote: post #43
oceanghost wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I have done many a cycle in my life, and of things far stronger than test. I hate that I only feel like the person I want to be on cycle. It speaks to the fragility and impermanence of the mind that a simple injection can make you a completely different person. If you've never had your mind altered, you cannot understand how fragile your self-identity is.

I’m with you. It’s been a struggle to reconcile life on it and off it. For six years I pinned. EW or EOD or ED. I got tired of it. It was consuming, and I felt like an addict. Testosterone is a carnal experience. I got tired of the mood swings. I felt amazing but, unstable. Certain things were not stable. My relationships specifically. I’m off it now, and I have to say, life is not as colorful, not as intense, not as…

I just turned 40 a few days ago, and after a bad divorce decided to pull my body out of the shitter again.

Dealing with a divorce on tren+pose+t is, awful. But the results are hard to argue with. I go to the gym 6 days a week, I lift all the things I'm supposed to, and the weight comes off, and the muscles grow. I've lost a shirt size in 8 weeks; my biceps don't fit in my shirts anymore. In 6 months I'll be unrecognizable, then I am getting out. No matter how much heart I put into the gym, I cannot lose weight with diet and exercise.

It is so frustrating dealing with doctors at this age. They'll tell you "diet and exercise" knowing full well you don't have the hormones to lose weight or recover from exercise, and that medical science has proven diets don't work because obesity is primarily a hormonal problem or a reaction to stress. About five years ago, I hired a professional bodybuilder as a diet coach/trainer and he diagnosed me with low T and adrenal insufficiency. I brought the tests to my doc he says, "this is good stuff", and he still won't prescribe T, but he still has the balls to say, "I want to see you at the gym."

I am going to run the gauntlet this one last time. Wish I wasn't single, however. I just try to burn it off the energy at the gym.

I'm glad you've reached some stability, and thanks for the thoughtful reply. :)

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#50

Post by balfirevic »

oceanghost wrote: post #49
tranchms wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m with you. It’s been a struggle to reconcile life on it and off it. For six years I pinned. EW or EOD or ED. I got tired of it. It was consuming, and I felt like an addict. Testosterone is a carnal experience. I got tired of the mood swings. I felt amazing but, unstable. Certain things were not stable. My relationships specifically. I’m off it now, and I have to say, life is not as colorful, not as intense, not as…

I just turned 40 a few days ago, and after a bad divorce decided to pull my body out of the shitter again. Dealing with a divorce on tren+pose+t is, awful. But the results are hard to argue with. I go to the gym 6 days a week, I lift all the things I'm supposed to, and the weight comes off, and the muscles grow. I've lost a shirt size in 8 weeks; my biceps don't fit in my shirts anymore. In 6 months I'll be unrecogni…

> and that medical science has proven diets don't work because obesity is primarily a hormonal problem or a reaction to stress

Wait, when did that happen?

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