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Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

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Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#41

Post by pyjammas »

hn0 wrote: post #37
user5454 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies [...] are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity. Better in what way? The Ju/’hoansi have lived in this egalitarian society for some 200k yrs[1]. It has obviously served them quite well. [1] Original article

I’m of libertarian persuasion but it has to be noted that periods of human history where one faction was souvereign over it’s dominion, were generally more peaceful and conducive to trade and human cooperation. Empirialism, dispite all of it’s atrocities, have resulted in more stable and peaceful periods during which cultural and technological progress is made. Personally, I believe it might be better to have a singl…

I don't necessarily disagree, but I can't help but wonder if the increase in peace and progress, assuming that's actually true (imperialism has caused quite a bit of suffering, just often not in our back-yard), cannot be explained by factors other than the 'leviathan'.

Furthermore, there's no reason to assume that a less centralized, less coercive approach might not be the next step in our 'progress'. Our technological developments, among other things, might make that more possible.

(I think that any such change would might not work very well if implemented revolutionary-style though, and I'm unsure what other approach might work)

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#42

Post by [deleted] »

dm319 wrote: post #27

The title is easily misunderstood - the article describes a type of envy in Namibian hunter-gatherers which resulted in a behaviour that is not usually seen as ok in most Western societies. They would insult and demean whatever windfall or wealth the person got, and also demand some of it. This meant that those who were successful hunter gatherers didn't start believing they were superior or more deserving than their…

[deleted]

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#43

Post by AmericanChopper »

JunaidBhai wrote: post #29

Feeling envious might be good as long as it enforces you to take a positive change in your life. Feeling envious for someone who has purchased a new house, a new car or established a new business would make you strive to have one for yourself would be regarded as a positive influence of envy.

That sounds more like aspiration than envy to me.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#44

Post by olavk »

RugnirViking wrote: post #23
user5454 wrote: post #5

> "For while a particularly spectacular kill was always cause for celebration, the hunter responsible was insulted rather than flattered." This seems to have the same purpose as the Law of Jante[1] we have in the Nordic countries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

As somebody who lives in the nordic countries but is a foreigner I think that the law is not really a specific thing to Nordic countries but just an amusing social commentary of certain types of society. It's the same nearly everywhere that 'boasting' is a bad thing and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

The "Law of Jante" is formulated in a novel by the Danish-Norwegian author Axel Sandemose. He explicitly states that the law is used by the proletariat to keep each other down, and that it is a universal phenomenon - just as strong in Brooklyn as in Jante, the (semi-fictional) Danish town of the book. A critical part of the book is his description of the "Law of Jante" among a dysfunctional multinational crew of sailors on a ship. (He ends up murdering one of the crew-members, and blames the "Law of Jante" for the murder!)

It is rather interesting that it is more often interpreted as a national characteristic - something uniquely Scandinavian - than a characteristic of the lower classes, which was the intention of the author.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#45

Post by beagle3 »

RugnirViking wrote: post #23
user5454 wrote: post #5

> "For while a particularly spectacular kill was always cause for celebration, the hunter responsible was insulted rather than flattered." This seems to have the same purpose as the Law of Jante[1] we have in the Nordic countries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

As somebody who lives in the nordic countries but is a foreigner I think that the law is not really a specific thing to Nordic countries but just an amusing social commentary of certain types of society. It's the same nearly everywhere that 'boasting' is a bad thing and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

Depends on the scale of course, but the US the best are idolized and boasting is expected (even encouraged), and this is true in other countries as well (though it is my experience the US is by far the leader).

As someone who have lived in a few countries and visited many more, I think the law of jante is a description of the social dynamics of scandinavian societies much more than of anywhere else (Denmark much more than Sweden)

There are other dynamics with somewhat similar results - a French friend told me that 10 years ago, starting your own company in France was the thing you did after you failed to get a job delivering the mail - leading to very little entrepreneurship - though he said it is changing in the last 5 years.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#46

Post by ddnb »

fit2rule wrote: post #18
ddnb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? I don't agree, you can ask for redistribution so the weakest in society are helped.

What do you personally gain from having a stronger society of individuals who are no longer weak? No longer afflicted with pity?

Safety. When people see no other way out they can do anything. Making sure everyone's basic needs are cared for makes it a safer and more stable society for everyone.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#47

Post by honestoHeminway »

Nokinside wrote: post #22

> Everyone jealously scrutinised everybody else all the time – something easy to do when all social life was conducted in a public space. They took careful note of what others ate, what others owned, what others received or gave as gifts, and whether or not they were sufficiently generous in return. This was typical small village behavior in Nordics less than 100 years ago. When your survival depends on the village c…

Eh, big red flag. Bid Landowners prevented innovation for centurys- since the roman times, using cheap labour instead of innovation.

What made them innovate was desperation- due to people having better jobs in factories, and cheap labour running out. Nobody innovates because he can. Some of those where even proud in there aristocracy aka "feeding the unwashed masses".

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#48

Post by hectorlorenzo »

RugnirViking wrote: post #23
user5454 wrote: post #5

> "For while a particularly spectacular kill was always cause for celebration, the hunter responsible was insulted rather than flattered." This seems to have the same purpose as the Law of Jante[1] we have in the Nordic countries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

As somebody who lives in the nordic countries but is a foreigner I think that the law is not really a specific thing to Nordic countries but just an amusing social commentary of certain types of society. It's the same nearly everywhere that 'boasting' is a bad thing and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

Have you ever lived in a Mediterranean country?

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#49

Post by pcnix »

hn0 wrote: post #37
user5454 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies [...] are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity. Better in what way? The Ju/’hoansi have lived in this egalitarian society for some 200k yrs[1]. It has obviously served them quite well. [1] Original article

I’m of libertarian persuasion but it has to be noted that periods of human history where one faction was souvereign over it’s dominion, were generally more peaceful and conducive to trade and human cooperation. Empirialism, dispite all of it’s atrocities, have resulted in more stable and peaceful periods during which cultural and technological progress is made. Personally, I believe it might be better to have a singl…

Am I right in assuming that your libertarianism leans left? Could you explain your libertarian ideals in a little more detail for someone curious?

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#50

Post by zero_shift »

hn0 wrote: post #37
user5454 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies [...] are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity. Better in what way? The Ju/’hoansi have lived in this egalitarian society for some 200k yrs[1]. It has obviously served them quite well. [1] Original article

I’m of libertarian persuasion but it has to be noted that periods of human history where one faction was souvereign over it’s dominion, were generally more peaceful and conducive to trade and human cooperation. Empirialism, dispite all of it’s atrocities, have resulted in more stable and peaceful periods during which cultural and technological progress is made. Personally, I believe it might be better to have a singl…

> I feel people arguing for anarchism (and I like anarchism in theory) typically do not seem to appreciate just how violent most of human history has been before highly centralized state and justice systems.

Just how violent was it? This seems a difficult assertion to make. The modern state arose at some point in the 15th century; I don't recall the Renaissance being that much more peaceful than Medieval times in Europe.

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