Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#41

Post by icebraining » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

ovao wrote: post #29

gonmf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no legal right to Facebook, but if Facebook wants to do business here, it has to abide by our rules. And our rules are very simple, you cannot deny service because the user doesn't allow tracking if tracking is not necessary for your service to work. And it isn't in this case, it's only necessary to deliver higher paying ads. Since they are being selective on the users they accept based on being tracked, the…

It's disconcerting to me that under the GDPR, online businesses appear to be losing the ability to deny services to a user who knowingly, and with clear consent, chooses to take personal responsibility over the data they provide to said businesses. Regardless of whether this is for the "greater good", this is deeply unsettling territory.

Your phrasing is confusing. Why would the business want to deny services to a user who chooses to take personal responsibility over the data they provide?

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#42

Post by ClassAndBurn » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

GDPR doesn't cover enough of the population using Facebook to warrant such a change to their business model where you can use the service without them using your data. They believe they are entrenched enough to just require this (and likely are for many EU residents).

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#43

Post by star-castle » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

Havoc wrote: post #39

Do you consent to this cavity search? (Required to board plane)

That's basically how it works in the US, yes.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#44

Post by stedaniels » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

star-castle wrote: post #13

floatingatoll wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you’d be permitted to do so. Facebook Messenger’s chat with your friends service does not depend on tracking, for example, so this argument doesn’t apply to Facebook.

What do you mean by "does not depend on tracking"? Do you mean that you can conceive of a way to implement the service as it appears to the user, without tracking? Because Facebook can certainly inject tracking into their chat app. Given Facebook, I assume it's already the case that if I type "let's get married" and then erase those words and never send them, that Facebook's going to start showing me advertisements f…

You assume that, I assume that, these thoughts are a few digits shy of the decimal point of the percentage of people in the world who understand this. It's not commonly known that Facebook track your every conscious and unconscious interactions with their sites, apps, and every other site that has one of their tracking pixels/logins. It's even less commonly known that they gather data from numerous data brokers to enhance the data they have on you.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#45

Post by lotu » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

andai wrote: post #23

zdragnar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consent isn't required for data collection that is necessary for the service to work. However, you have to be prepared to defend in court that it IS necessary. As such, trackers in 3rd-party advertising network code probably won't count as necessary; it's necessary for the ad network, but it is not necessary for the website displaying the advertisements, as proven by ad-blockers. Likewise, the facebook like button an…

Do you mean to say that Facebook's existence isn't entirely dependent on selling personal information to advertisers?

My understanding is that Facebook doesn’t actually sell data to advertisers. By this I mean you can’t go to Facebook and say, “I would like to buy data for 10,000 18-24 year old males in New York City, how much?” Instead you say, “I have an ad I want to show to 10,000 18-24 year old males in NYC, how much?” Facebook then handles serving the ad for you and sends you data about how succufull your campaigne was, when people click on the ad and visit your website you obviously can collect data from them there. This is subtle difference and one I think few people have been articulating, probally in part because it makes you sound like a shill for Facebook.

This actually makes more sense finically for Facebook, if they did the first thing people would only have to buy data once, and worse they could resell the data to third parties decreasing Facebook’s control of the market. Instead by retaining control of the data Facebook can charge an advertiser for every ad they show, making more money. Ironically this also better protects peoples privacy because Facebook isn’t actually giving the data away.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#46

Post by icebraining » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #25

gonmf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no legal right to Facebook, but if Facebook wants to do business here, it has to abide by our rules. And our rules are very simple, you cannot deny service because the user doesn't allow tracking if tracking is not necessary for your service to work. And it isn't in this case, it's only necessary to deliver higher paying ads. Since they are being selective on the users they accept based on being tracked, the…

And if higher paying ads are necessary for the service to work? Or do you foresee this being like drug prices, where the US subsidizes drug development for the world?

They aren't, though. There are other ways of making money. Like charging people. If people won't pay, well, worst things could befall the Union than Facebook leaving.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#47

Post by PuffinBlue » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

star-castle wrote: post #22

zdragnar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consent isn't required for data collection that is necessary for the service to work. However, you have to be prepared to defend in court that it IS necessary. As such, trackers in 3rd-party advertising network code probably won't count as necessary; it's necessary for the ad network, but it is not necessary for the website displaying the advertisements, as proven by ad-blockers. Likewise, the facebook like button an…

> but it is not necessary for the website displaying the advertisements, as proven by ad-blockers. when I was a child I stole a toy from Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is still around. Therefore, Wal-Mart's entire existence as a store does not depend on any kind of anti-theft measures, and it should be illegal for them to film my entrance and exit.

This is an interesting choice of counter-argument. Firstly three things:

1) Laws don't exist in isolation

2) Long standing law says theft is illegal and stores can take steps to limit it.

3) This new law (GDPR) says you can't take users details and use them unless necessary to provide your service.

With this new GDPR law it's the little guy, the user, that get protection from something of value being taken from them and exploited - their personal details.

So, extending the above counter-argument it is also true to say that like Walmart, the singular 'theft' of personal details might not be terminal for the user. But just like the law recognises the theft of material goods and it's potential harm (even in the case of a singal instance), it now recognises the 'taking' of personal data as harmful (also even a single instance).

Extending the argument further, the GDPR takes the stance that one entity has been taking something of value from another without true compensation for the value of that something.

When we realise that what has been taken from users has value and that users haven't been fairly compensated for that value, it becomes obvious that a set of entities have based a business model on profiting off another set without fair compensation.

The GDPR now limits that behaviour and business model to return balance to the 'contract' between the two parties. Users get to use a service by providing the minimum needed for that service to be provided.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#48

Post by waisbrot » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

ucaetano wrote: post #34

Lionsion wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see that argument going well: Since they let users opt-out of targeted advertising, which is probably the only thing "tracking" is useful for, they tacitly admit that "tracking" is not necessary for them to providing their service.

"We require tracking to pay for the costs of providing this free service". No such thing as a free lunch.

That would be interesting! That would probably mean they'd need to ban me, since I use an ad-blocker, right?

What about someone who uploads a lot of pictures but doesn't have many friends? That person might be using more resources than the ad revenue they generated...

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#49

Post by zdragnar » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

andai wrote: post #23

zdragnar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consent isn't required for data collection that is necessary for the service to work. However, you have to be prepared to defend in court that it IS necessary. As such, trackers in 3rd-party advertising network code probably won't count as necessary; it's necessary for the ad network, but it is not necessary for the website displaying the advertisements, as proven by ad-blockers. Likewise, the facebook like button an…

Do you mean to say that Facebook's existence isn't entirely dependent on selling personal information to advertisers?

I don't think the GDPR's "necessary to work" clause considers profit models. I believe, (again, IANAL) that "necessary to work" is really "necessary for a feature to function"; how a company derives revenue from the service doesn't come into account.

It would be interesting to see revenue as a necessity be tested in court, since there are open-source social networks that don't rely on user tracking or data sales to the extent that Facebook does it.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#50

Post by simonbarker87 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

mrec wrote: post #36

andai wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an EU citizen I am offended by this regulation.

Somewhat ironically, as a (UK) Leave voter I rather like it.

Voting to leave doesn’t automatically mean one has to dislike all laws from the EU. It’s ok to want to leave the EU whilst also liking some aspects of what it brings us. As a person who voted remain this has been one of the most frustrating things about the whole Brexit situation, it’s like it has to be a binary status: one either loves the EU and everything about it or you hate the EU and membership brings no benefits at all.

I don’t think it’s ironic that you like this law, I think it’s understandable that you would if you have privacy concerns and, given T. May’s choices over the years, you were unlikely to get it without membership to the EU.