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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#41

Post by dazc »

gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

> "In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence."

So why not just let the vote go ahead and get it over with?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#42

Post by gfiorav »

nsnick wrote: post #31
gfiorav wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thing: the referendum is ilegal according to constitution (agreed on by Catalans in the 70s). We can debate if it should or should not be ilegal, but it’s a different thing. These actions are taken to avoid violating the constitutional order, not the vote directly. If the constitution is being infringed, you can’t make exceptions.

We can also debate whether the response of the Spanish government is out of line. Nothing will bring about Catalan independence faster than heavy handed repression by the Spanish government.

My point is:

How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#43

Post by adventured »

627467 wrote: post #17

This is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of nation-state. The people have the right to divorce and the state has the right to maintain its unity against all. It's like Spain is trying to push Catalonians to violence.

> This is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of nation-state.

Your premise is contradictory. You're claiming that Catalonia trying to form its own nation-state is a proof that the nation-state is breaking down. The exact opposite is the case: the nation-state is so desirable that Catalonia wants to form its own.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#44

Post by bonzini »

dazc wrote: post #41
gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

> "In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence." So why not just let the vote go ahead and get it over with?

Because of the precedent, presumably. If it is not allowed by the Spanish Constitution, what will be the next part of the Constitution that will be ignored?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#45

Post by School-Cotton »

monodeldiablo wrote: post #25

When I was dating a Croatian girl, I asked her which country reminded her most of pre-war Yugoslavia. "Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check. Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity? Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-era atrocities? Ch…

Nit... Spain's not a republic

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#46

Post by dawkins »

monodeldiablo wrote: post #25

When I was dating a Croatian girl, I asked her which country reminded her most of pre-war Yugoslavia. "Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check. Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity? Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-era atrocities? Ch…

"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside that Spain is a monarchy, in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish, mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals... that is a little example of the "oppresion" you talk about. They have pushed the government to the limit and they have to do something.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#47

Post by dawkins »

ghostDancer wrote: post #21
plehoux wrote: post #9

I'm amazed by how the Spanish government manages all of this. Haven't they study independence movements in Canada and the U.K.? The only reason Quebec is not a country is that the Canadian government kept a 'somewhat' cool head during the two referendums. Breaking Point is a damn good CBC documentary about the Quebec referendum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl7lOundk4Y

It's Spain, the politicians in the government are using it to cover that they have more than 800 members of their party being under investigation or even prosecuted from corruption. The governing party is being investigated for having using black money to pay for elections among other things like getting rich. They embrace themselves inside the Spanish flag and the unity of the country.

To be fair the regional government is even more corrupt and do exactly the same thing. Even more and also play the victim card

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#49

Post by balance_factor »

gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

> the "oppressed"

Sure, how are they oppressed? In 1938 Barcelona was bombed because the army wanted to destroy the republic and what existed of Catalonia autonomy. So any existing Catalonia autonomy or democracy of any form was crushed in 1939, replaced by a military dictatorship, and only started to recover in 1977-1978. The Spanish dictatorship killed thousands of Catalans after the 1939 takeover.

The same forces in Spanish society who did that are the same forces which seek to destroy Catalan autonomy again. By the same means, policemen kicking down the door. You dismiss prior referendums, fine. There is going to be one in 11 days. So if those polls you cite are true, then it seems independence will not happen. It's bizarre to call a referendum in ten days "outrageously undemocratic", while decades of a brutal dictatorship established by an invasion and the murder of thousands afterward goes without mention.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#50

Post by nsnick »

gfiorav wrote: post #42
nsnick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can also debate whether the response of the Spanish government is out of line. Nothing will bring about Catalan independence faster than heavy handed repression by the Spanish government.

My point is: How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?

If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up because they want to hold an election.
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