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Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

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Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#41

Post by kgwgk »

arethuza wrote: post #35
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted, in part. Especially on interior manufacturing, where Tesla's flagship Model-S luxury sedan could stand to learn a thing or two from Mercedes, and in sheet metal stamping/carbon fiber fabrication, where OEMs do invest a lot of attention. But I maintain that the primary focus of an automotive manufacturer is their powertrain. This is evidenced by the outsourcing of many of those other components, and by the re…

"primary focus of an automotive manufacturer is their powertrain" The VW Group re-uses the same engines across lots of its different brands - for a high-performance or electric car then of course the powertrain is important. For everything else its just one component and as long as it is good enough I suspect people aren't really that interested. Edit: Other manufacturers may do this, I'm just more familiar with VW G…

> Other manufacturers may do this

They all reuse components and designs as much as possible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_platform

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#42

Post by jacquesm »

ginko wrote: post #11
VeejayRampay wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, as a Frenchman, if history has taught me ANYTHING about the Germans, it's that they're generally very apt at changing course, adapting and being ahead of the curve. They have that image of not being the most flexible but when it comes to technology and industry, they're pretty damn good and I think they'll make that transition just like they've made all the necessary transitions before.

A good counter example of this is the downfall of the German camera industry in the 60s and 70s. All that's left of that is Leica, Zeiss and a bunch of brand names (Rollei, Contax, Voigtländer..) stuck on Japanese cameras.

Leica is junk nowadays.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#43

Post by jacquesm »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

For Elon Musk's sake I really hope that he's not so naive as to underestimate the competition to this extent.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#44

Post by CrystalGamma »

Xixi wrote: post #31
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

Mercedes has a lot of help in this fight: the writing is not on the wall, it's in the law. That should be quite helpful in convincing employees to not only not fight the change, but to push for the change. At some point survival instinct kicks in. ICE cars will be banned (either already law, or being discussed) in: Norway (2025), Netherlands (2025), India (2030), Germany (maybe 2030), France (2040), China (date unkno…

As the very home country of Mercedes/Daimler, Opel, Volkswagen and other car manufacturers and the (AFAIK) only unlimited-speed public roads in the world (Autobahn), I (German citizen) pretty much doubt our government will start a serious effort to get ICE cars banned in the next 3 years. Maybe if EVs get significant traction in that timeframe, they'll propose such a law to look progressive for the next election.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#45

Post by _ea1k »

ams6110 wrote: post #4
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

> Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well established.

Yes, but it is all built around selling the ICE as the ultimate driving machine. To compete with Tesla, the entire marketing machine will have to be reworked in such a way as to imply that their previous flagships are now legacy.

That is a bitter pill and will face much internal political resistance, regardless of the technical issues involved.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#46

Post by saosebastiao »

WorldMaker wrote: post #32
saosebastiao wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GM maybe. Mercedes definitely not. Unlike almost all automakers, Mercedes has consistently embraced change. Their entire premise is to build a car that is 10 years into the future, and generally speaking they do it. Sometimes they mispredict the future, but they have never been afraid to correct course. A different type of drivetrain doesn't mean starting from scratch. It's a major component, but it would be foolish…

GM has had skin in the electric car game for decades (although a flop, the EV1 was still a try). They've sold a healthy number of Volts, Sparks, Cadillac ELRs, and now Bolts. Whether or not you are correct in supposing Mercedes can embrace the change, using GM as a counter-example is a bad analogy because from the GM perspective it is Mercedes that needs to catch up. That said, I'm not expecting GM to set an aggressi…

Every electric car that GM has ever produced has been the result of playing national politics. The volt was announced right around the time that bailouts and cash 4 clunkers were political talking points...it was a way to show congress that they really needed to intervene to keep GM alive. The EV1 was the result of CARB regulations that required the big 7 to have zero-emission vehicles compose at least 2% of their fleet.

Unlike Mercedes or VW, which are responding to market demands, GM only showboated electric vehicles as a way of staying in bounds or gaining favors politically. GM has made virtually no effort at bringing competitive hybrid or full-electric drivetrains to their mainstream models, and they probably wont even consider it until it's bailout time again.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#47

Post by drewg123 »

petra wrote: post #34
drewg123 wrote: post #29

TL;DR "Its the charging, stupid" Until they have a fast charging option like Tesla's, then all the other auto makers will be "also rans" in my opinion. Case in point: The Chevy Bolt is, on paper, a Tesla Model 3 killer. It is cheaper, has better range, and it is available now. However, there is no way to charge it on a road trip (unless you're a masochist, and want to depend on flaky 3rd party charging networks where…

So what's the end game for Tesla ? owning the best charging network with large network effects, and getting high margins?

I expect that it is evolving.

Right now, there are a lot of people who will only get a Tesla for the above reasons. That gives them better market share, and allows them to command a bit of a premium for their cars.

Medium term, I'd be willing to bet that they start to make deals to let other auto manufacturers use their superchargers. This would cement their lead in charging, and they might be able to make some revenue from this.

Longer term, there will have to be a fast charging network from somebody, especially if Tesla does not open up their supercharging network. I'm really shocked that one or more of the big gasoline companies has not gotten on board with this. They make a lot of their money from the various stuff they sell in addition to gas (food, trinkets, etc). EV "fast" charging is still an order of magnitude slower than gas/diesel refueling, so people will be spending a lot more time in their stores. This should drive up their profit.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#48

Post by usrusr »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #7
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

Seriously, as a Frenchman, if history has taught me ANYTHING about the Germans, it's that they're generally very apt at changing course, adapting and being ahead of the curve. They have that image of not being the most flexible but when it comes to technology and industry, they're pretty damn good and I think they'll make that transition just like they've made all the necessary transitions before.

"Big Auto" taking everyone by surprise with a massive battery manufacturing investment in Belgium? Now that would be a nicely utopian twist on the trope of history repeating. One could hardly make up a better symbol for what the EU is about, make profit not war.

And yes, I completely made up that idea of German cars on Belgian batteries, just for the sake of historical analogy. But then I googled a bit and it turns out that Belgium, per capita, already has the biggest chemical industry worldwide. It might actually be a perfect match.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#49

Post by georgeecollins »

Tesla has captured the brand of electric car, in the way that the Prius has the best brand for hybrid. The Prius wasn't even the first hybrid car, but it was first very popular one. Anyone that drove it was making a statement about the environment and it has remained a strong brand despite a plethora of hybrid models

Mercedes will probably make great electric cars. But there will be people for a long time forward who will buy a Tesla to make a statement.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#50

Post by jhoechtl »

S_A_P wrote: post #25

I said this statement in the MB electrification article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15219469 Electric cars need a battery tech that offers a "refuel experience" if they want to change the game. Ive seen things like solid battery tech that may offer something close to this. Im not anywhere near an expert on battery tech, but I can say as a car guy that mainstream adoption hinges on this. Once this battery tec…

Yes the refuel experience as well as the total green balance (for the educated) is what is holding world dominance of the electric drivetrain back. I can litterly carry the energy needed for a 500 miles drive. What is the weight of the batteries I would need for a 500 miles ride? Additionally as I ride on gas the weight is consumed instead of transformed (gas is running out), yet a battery at 10% capacity still has its weight. Sure this behavior contributes to the environmental benefits of battery driven engines.
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