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We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

piratpartiet.se

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Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#41

Post by eru »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #36
johnfn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument doesn't apply. The things that you listed all have legitimate, non lawbreaking uses. For instance, security books can help you keep your computer more secure, lockpicks can help you understand your house security, and so on. A torrent containing a link to a file that is illegal to copy has no legitimate non lawbreaking use case. There is no legal way to use a torrent of Portal. I notice you mentioned in…

I have downloaded many copyrighted works that I own physical media for as a convenience, since ripping them can be such a pain and kids are hard on little plastic discs. Courts have held that this copy is a legal copy. To say there is no legitimate non-lawbreaking use is incorrect.

Yes, but I guess when you use Bittorrent for this purpos, you have to make sure that you are not sharing your legal copy with other people, who may not have purchased the work.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#42

Post by eru »

anigbrowl wrote: post #26
zacharypinter wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea here is that if society is moving away from a situation where knowledge/information is scarce and its distribution is costly, then businesses should find a way to profit under the new scenario, rather than trying to enforce old methodologies.

Fair enough, but the current problem is that it's hard to make money creating content without spending a lot of time learning to be a publisher. Sure, you can blog, but what if your thing is writing novels or paintings in some obscure artistic style? The disruption of the old publishing ecosystem has created many new opportunities, but also undermined many specialized niche markets. In other cases, content has become…

> Sure, you can blog, but what if your thing is writing novels or paintings in some obscure artistic style?

So what? The world doesn't owe you a living. It was there first.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#43

Post by rick888 »

invisible wrote: post #31
rick888 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We apply this standard to manufacturers of lock picks, crowbars, physical key-loggers, books detailing the security of computers, etc. I'm curious why you feel a different standard should apply to someone who provides hosting for torrent files. The onus is on the criminal, not those who provide tools which may or may not be used in a crime." If I had a website setup exclusively for sharing valid credit card numbers…

This is not what TPB is doing though: they provide a .torrent file that someone else hosts that could potentially contain credit card numbers (for example). Now, if TPB had things plastered everywhere saying "20th Century Fox Movies," "Paramount Movies," and "Warner Bros. Movies" and all of these linked to illegal movies that none of those companies agreed to have up there for free.... Yeah, that might be bad. Go to…

"Go to their site and look for something pushing illegal content. Their name contains pirate - that's a stretch. The mention they have music, movies, games, and software but these are not illegal in themselves. That's about as far as the rabbit hole goes."

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. TPB changes their main search graphic to various copyrighted books, software, and movies to flaunt it in the faces of the content creators.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#44

Post by rick888 »

tsally wrote: post #30
rick888 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We apply this standard to manufacturers of lock picks, crowbars, physical key-loggers, books detailing the security of computers, etc. I'm curious why you feel a different standard should apply to someone who provides hosting for torrent files. The onus is on the criminal, not those who provide tools which may or may not be used in a crime." If I had a website setup exclusively for sharing valid credit card numbers…

Stealing a credit card is stealing in itself, you don't actually have to charge anything. The analogy isn't valid. The correct analogy is the fact that you can use Google to find numbers that look like credit card numbers. Similarly, hosting a copyrighted file is illegal. But providing the means in which to find said file is not. There's a reason why the world should work this way. I can use a wide array of objects a…

"Stealing a credit card is stealing in itself"

no it's not. If you don't have the original card in hand, you just have data. Data can't be "stolen" according to the responses here, only copied.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#45

Post by rick888 »

tsally wrote: post #30
rick888 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We apply this standard to manufacturers of lock picks, crowbars, physical key-loggers, books detailing the security of computers, etc. I'm curious why you feel a different standard should apply to someone who provides hosting for torrent files. The onus is on the criminal, not those who provide tools which may or may not be used in a crime." If I had a website setup exclusively for sharing valid credit card numbers…

Stealing a credit card is stealing in itself, you don't actually have to charge anything. The analogy isn't valid. The correct analogy is the fact that you can use Google to find numbers that look like credit card numbers. Similarly, hosting a copyrighted file is illegal. But providing the means in which to find said file is not. There's a reason why the world should work this way. I can use a wide array of objects a…

"There's a reason why the world should work this way. I can use a wide array of objects as a lock pick (i.e. a banana). To prosecute me for walking down the street with any of these objects (including actual lock picks) is just ludicrous. Hence why the law says that I actually have to demonstrate the intention to use a tool to steal something in order for it to be a crime. And in any case, the took maker is usually never liable."

Your examples are ridiculous.

Here is an example from TPB:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5666626/Adobe_Photoshop_CS5_...

it's for photoshop CS5. The readme, which is on the website, clearly states what it is. There is no confusion. You aren't getting a demo or a trial.

TPB is also not like google because they also run many of the trackers used to download these files.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_tracker

"Hence why the law says that I actually have to demonstrate the intention to use a tool to steal something in order for it to be a crime. And in any case, the took maker is usually never liable."

If you sell knives, you won't be prosecuted for murder. However, if you have a website detailing exactly how to kill someone, their schedule, and sell knives along with this guide, you probably will be held liable.

"It's an impossible task to go after the tool makers, so just go after the criminals."

It's not impossible to go after the tool makers. By going after TPB, they can potentially stop millions of downloads per day in one shot.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#46

Post by anigbrowl »

eru wrote: post #42
anigbrowl wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but the current problem is that it's hard to make money creating content without spending a lot of time learning to be a publisher. Sure, you can blog, but what if your thing is writing novels or paintings in some obscure artistic style? The disruption of the old publishing ecosystem has created many new opportunities, but also undermined many specialized niche markets. In other cases, content has become…

> Sure, you can blog, but what if your thing is writing novels or paintings in some obscure artistic style? So what? The world doesn't owe you a living. It was there first.

Way to miss the point...a lack of distribution channels means less consumer choice too.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#47

Post by rick888 »

Jach wrote: post #25
rick888 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This really makes me question my vote for the pirate party. I really like them, as a voice for freedom on the internet and beyond, and would really like them to lay of the pirate propaganda and start preaching the gospel of freedom instead. Perhaps I bet on the wrong horse all along. Unfortunately I don't know what the right horse is." I would vote for them as long as "freedom" doesn't mean the ability of anyone to…

So your disagreement with the status quo is the current brand of legal consequences being used? What do you propose instead that will have the effect of limiting downloading and sharing of the above, since that's what you seem to be after?

"What do you propose instead that will have the effect of limiting downloading and sharing of the above, since that's what you seem to be after?"

That people respect the wishes of the content providers by not going around them and downloading their content for free. Since it's obvious this isn't going to happen, it's going to have to happen by force.

I hear so many arguments on this site about respecting your fellow man when it comes to health care and paying your fair share of taxes. Yet, when it comes to someone selling software online, they don't deserve the money. It just seems very hypocritical to me.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#48

Post by invisible »

rick888 wrote: post #43
invisible wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not what TPB is doing though: they provide a .torrent file that someone else hosts that could potentially contain credit card numbers (for example). Now, if TPB had things plastered everywhere saying "20th Century Fox Movies," "Paramount Movies," and "Warner Bros. Movies" and all of these linked to illegal movies that none of those companies agreed to have up there for free.... Yeah, that might be bad. Go to…

"Go to their site and look for something pushing illegal content. Their name contains pirate - that's a stretch. The mention they have music, movies, games, and software but these are not illegal in themselves. That's about as far as the rabbit hole goes." Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. TPB changes their main search graphic to various copyrighted books, software, and movies to flaunt it in th…

I've never seen that, but if you have a source other than your mouth I'd love to see it. I've seen them change the graphic, but never to copyrighted works. Oh, and I wasn't saying that to "[make myself] feel better," I was saying it because it is true afaik.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#49

Post by xsmasher »

cabalamat wrote: post #9
henning wrote: post #2

That talk about freedom of speech is a nice way of defending large-scale copyright infringement.

> That talk about freedom of speech is a nice way of defending large-scale copyright infringement. Copyright laws exist to restrict people's rights to free speech and freedom of communication. And in the age of the internet, business models based on scarcity of copies are obsolete; they cannot be propped up except by restricting the utility of the internet. The copyright cartels (RIAA, MPAA, etc) want every computer…

Copyright laws exist to incentiveize creation of works and help creators make money from their works.

If you don't like DRM, fine, neither do I when it keeps me from watching movies I've paid for or time- and media- shifting content that I've bought. Go join the EFF then, not The Pirate Bay. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Without copyright, how creators make money on content? By locking it in DRM boxes. TPB is on the wrong side in this fight.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#50

Post by SoftwareMaven »

eru wrote: post #41
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have downloaded many copyrighted works that I own physical media for as a convenience, since ripping them can be such a pain and kids are hard on little plastic discs. Courts have held that this copy is a legal copy. To say there is no legitimate non-lawbreaking use is incorrect.

Yes, but I guess when you use Bittorrent for this purpos, you have to make sure that you are not sharing your legal copy with other people, who may not have purchased the work.

It is not my job to police them. Given I am utilizing the BT ecosystem to receive the copy, I share in return as payment. I do not share movies forever, but that is really just to keep my bandwidth from being saturated. If I just leach, then I won't have an opportunity in the future to have this convenience.

Would I prefer that they not pirate the stuff I download? Yes, I would. Content creators absolutely deserve to be paid for their efforts.

If content publishers would give me the convenience of a non-DRM infected digital copy (or the ability to easily rip a disc), I would not ever need to use BT. The digital copies of disks some publishers provide is close, but not good enough.

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