We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament • Hacker News Board

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#21

Post by zacharypinter » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 10:41 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #14

dkberktas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe your app developer should seek other ways of getting money out of his app. Not for this specific case but "in app purchase" and ads in apps are two great ways of earning money.

"Maybe your app developer should seek other ways of getting money out of his app. Not for this specific case but "in app purchase" and ads in apps are two great ways of earning money." So instead of dealing with the actual problem (people pirating). He should just give it away for free with ads?

I think the idea here is that if society is moving away from a situation where knowledge/information is scarce and its distribution is costly, then businesses should find a way to profit under the new scenario, rather than trying to enforce old methodologies.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#22

Post by rick888 » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 10:48 PM UTC

dkberktas wrote: post #16

rick888 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maybe your app developer should seek other ways of getting money out of his app. Not for this specific case but "in app purchase" and ads in apps are two great ways of earning money." So instead of dealing with the actual problem (people pirating). He should just give it away for free with ads?

Well, i don't see it as a problem. All I say is try to adapt to the current situation, don't try to impose rules on people so that your way of seeing things continue. If people prefer to watch movies at their home w/out paying for it, what the movie industry should do is to find other ways of making money, becuase bannign things is not going to work.

"Well, i don't see it as a problem. All I say is try to adapt to the current situation, don't try to impose rules on people so that your way of seeing things continue. If people prefer to watch movies at their home w/out paying for it, what the movie industry should do is to find other ways of making money, becuase bannign things is not going to work."

By adapting, they are showing people that it's okay. It's not. Rules are imposed by most stores/companies. When you go to a store and take something off the shelf, you are required to checkout and pay for it. If everyone in a particular store felt that they could just leave without paying, should the store just work this into their business model?

Your line of thinking is a growing entitlement problem. People (especially younger than 30) feel entitled to software, music, and movies on the Internet.

One of the main arguments is that it's not stealing because revenue is not lost (like a physical item). My argument has always been that over time, the perceived value of the items would go down (because more and more people would expect to get it for free). Many of the posts in this thread are proving my point.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#23

Post by hugh3 » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 10:51 PM UTC

oldgregg wrote: post #7

henning wrote: post #2

That talk about freedom of speech is a nice way of defending large-scale copyright infringement.

"That talk about racial equality is a nice way of saying you just want a better seat on the bus. " -- talking heads, 1955. I don't think you get it. The question is whether copyright is morally right. Rosa Parks sat on the back of the bus. The Pirate bay moves their servers into parliament. People have always protested laws they feel are unjust and you clearly you don't seem to realize that. These guys have suffered…

I'm really not sure how the analogy works.

Rosa Parks was engaging in civil disobedience, and the point of civil disobedience is that you demonstrate the unjustness of a law by openly breaking it and accepting your punishment. The unjustness of the punishment you receive will raise attention about the unjustness of the law.

Whatever the Pirate Party is engaging in, it's the complete opposite of civil disobedience, since they're trying to avoid getting punished for breaking the law.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#24

Post by hugh3 » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 10:56 PM UTC

Cayenne wrote: post #4

madmaze wrote: post #3

I wish the US would have a Pirate Party! I would be a supporter of freedom of speech and internet neutrality!

Aren't you a citizen of the US? If you are, then why not just start it yourself, instead of wishing? Also, there IS a Pirate Party for the US: http://www.pirate-party.us/news.php

If those are the issues you're concerned about then I don't think a Pirate Party is actually helpful.

But it's an interesting question: if you want a certain type of political change are you better off forming a crazy extremist group or a modest mainstream one?

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#25

Post by Jach » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 11:47 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #12

acon wrote: post #8

This really makes me question my vote for the pirate party. I really like them, as a voice for freedom on the internet and beyond, and would really like them to lay of the pirate propaganda and start preaching the gospel of freedom instead. Perhaps I bet on the wrong horse all along. Unfortunately I don't know what the right horse is.

"This really makes me question my vote for the pirate party. I really like them, as a voice for freedom on the internet and beyond, and would really like them to lay of the pirate propaganda and start preaching the gospel of freedom instead. Perhaps I bet on the wrong horse all along. Unfortunately I don't know what the right horse is." I would vote for them as long as "freedom" doesn't mean the ability of anyone to…

So your disagreement with the status quo is the current brand of legal consequences being used? What do you propose instead that will have the effect of limiting downloading and sharing of the above, since that's what you seem to be after?

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#26

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 11:48 PM UTC

zacharypinter wrote: post #21

rick888 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maybe your app developer should seek other ways of getting money out of his app. Not for this specific case but "in app purchase" and ads in apps are two great ways of earning money." So instead of dealing with the actual problem (people pirating). He should just give it away for free with ads?

I think the idea here is that if society is moving away from a situation where knowledge/information is scarce and its distribution is costly, then businesses should find a way to profit under the new scenario, rather than trying to enforce old methodologies.

Fair enough, but the current problem is that it's hard to make money creating content without spending a lot of time learning to be a publisher. Sure, you can blog, but what if your thing is writing novels or paintings in some obscure artistic style?

The disruption of the old publishing ecosystem has created many new opportunities, but also undermined many specialized niche markets. In other cases, content has become more accessible in one context but unaffordable in others. The loss of income from recorded music is one factor in the increasingly high cost of concert tickets, so it's a lot more expensive to go see your favorite band than it used to be, and the higher revenue stream from established acts makes it more difficult for new ones to get in front of a larger audience.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#27

Post by Jach » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 11:51 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #15

tsally wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing you can't find copyright files to download via Google search. Otherwise it would be as bad as The Pirate Bay! Enabling someone to break the law doesn't make the enabler culpable. We apply this standard to manufacturers of lock picks, crowbars, physical key-loggers, books detailing the security of computers, etc. I'm curious why you feel a different standard should apply to someone who provides hosting for…

"We apply this standard to manufacturers of lock picks, crowbars, physical key-loggers, books detailing the security of computers, etc. I'm curious why you feel a different standard should apply to someone who provides hosting for torrent files. The onus is on the criminal, not those who provide tools which may or may not be used in a crime." If I had a website setup exclusively for sharing valid credit card numbers…

This is assuming the Pirate Bay et al. are exclusively set up for sharing copyrighted information, when this not the case. You can find credit card numbers through Google as well. Anyway, the example just seems really silly, and as a previous commenter noted, whether your site is taken down or not doesn't matter: the card number is leaked (which has nothing to do with your site), I'm canceling it anyway.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#28

Post by CapitalistCartr » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 11:59 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #24

Cayenne wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you a citizen of the US? If you are, then why not just start it yourself, instead of wishing? Also, there IS a Pirate Party for the US: http://www.pirate-party.us/news.php

If those are the issues you're concerned about then I don't think a Pirate Party is actually helpful. But it's an interesting question: if you want a certain type of political change are you better off forming a crazy extremist group or a modest mainstream one?

I think the extremists are more effective. While people don't take them as seriously, they do move the balance of the discussion. It's like a see-saw {balance}. Where do you put a limited weight to have the maximum effect. Groups like The Sierra Club were ignored or seen as pretty fringe, until groups like Earth First came onto the scene.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#29

Post by zyb09 » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 12:56 AM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #12

acon wrote: post #8

This really makes me question my vote for the pirate party. I really like them, as a voice for freedom on the internet and beyond, and would really like them to lay of the pirate propaganda and start preaching the gospel of freedom instead. Perhaps I bet on the wrong horse all along. Unfortunately I don't know what the right horse is.

"This really makes me question my vote for the pirate party. I really like them, as a voice for freedom on the internet and beyond, and would really like them to lay of the pirate propaganda and start preaching the gospel of freedom instead. Perhaps I bet on the wrong horse all along. Unfortunately I don't know what the right horse is." I would vote for them as long as "freedom" doesn't mean the ability of anyone to…

I don't think piracy is such a bad thing. Imaging there's a gigantic library that has every music title, movie, TV show, book and software made by man in their shelfs and everybody has free access. Sounds like a desirable thing.

Now the problem of course arises when content creators don't get paid anymore and therefore content creation becomes unprofitable or the quality of the products diminishes. But neither of these things seem to be happening. Not even in the slightest. Entertainment is booming, movies and games reach new heights of invest and profit each year and despite having now a generation of children that probably never bought a music album in there life, Apple will tell you the music industry is far from dead.

So it actually seems you can have both - a highly profitable digital content industry, while having said content available for free to everybody.

Re: We will host The Pirate Bay inside the Swedish parliament

#30

Post by tsally » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 2:08 AM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #15

tsally wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing you can't find copyright files to download via Google search. Otherwise it would be as bad as The Pirate Bay! Enabling someone to break the law doesn't make the enabler culpable. We apply this standard to manufacturers of lock picks, crowbars, physical key-loggers, books detailing the security of computers, etc. I'm curious why you feel a different standard should apply to someone who provides hosting for…

"We apply this standard to manufacturers of lock picks, crowbars, physical key-loggers, books detailing the security of computers, etc. I'm curious why you feel a different standard should apply to someone who provides hosting for torrent files. The onus is on the criminal, not those who provide tools which may or may not be used in a crime." If I had a website setup exclusively for sharing valid credit card numbers…

Stealing a credit card is stealing in itself, you don't actually have to charge anything. The analogy isn't valid. The correct analogy is the fact that you can use Google to find numbers that look like credit card numbers. Similarly, hosting a copyrighted file is illegal. But providing the means in which to find said file is not.

There's a reason why the world should work this way. I can use a wide array of objects as a lock pick (i.e. a banana). To prosecute me for walking down the street with any of these objects (including actual lock picks) is just ludicrous. Hence why the law says that I actually have to demonstrate the intention to use a tool to steal something in order for it to be a crime. And in any case, the took maker is usually never liable.

It's a very simple idea. Prosecute the criminals, not the people who provide tools which might be used in a crime. Obviously there's an upper limit. For example, a grenade is a pretty unambiguous, single-use tool. That's why selling one is illegal. But most tools have many uses, some illegal and some not. It's an impossible task to go after the tool makers, so just go after the criminals.