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Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

nytimes.com

41–50 of 81 posts

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#41
post #15

I participated in the experimental deployment of digital ballot box in a rich north Italian region, during regional elections. The system worked, and worked well. But overall, it was a failure. Putting the digital in something as simple as voting, just increase the risks at all levels: security, deployment, rechecking, etc. Pen and paper it's just so much better: simple, cost-effective, safe and understandable by any…

Yes, not everything needs to be done with silicon.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#42
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wouldn't say that that somebody hacked Iceland's democracy. No, you wouldn't. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over the DNC hacks are all because the Democratic leadership is unwilling to accept responsibility for putting forward a bad candidate. Better blame the Russians, instead! If only the public didn't know the truth, we would have won!

You aren't wrong about the Democratic Party putting forth a weak candidate, but it is concerning that there weren't similar actions on the other side. The attacks were targeting a specific party alone and seem to be motivated by foreign geopolitical interests, not in the American public's interest. There is a reason we want equal time laws for example, because if I constantly hear one side of the argument, it doesn't…

It doesn't concern me at all. The Democratic Party isn't a branch of government. It's a private company. That so many treat it like it's a government organization is far more concerning than the motivations behind any hacks of one or both major parties.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#43
post #21
post #15

I participated in the experimental deployment of digital ballot box in a rich north Italian region, during regional elections. The system worked, and worked well. But overall, it was a failure. Putting the digital in something as simple as voting, just increase the risks at all levels: security, deployment, rechecking, etc. Pen and paper it's just so much better: simple, cost-effective, safe and understandable by any…

I develop software and devices used for data collection during clinical drug trials, and our single biggest "competitor" is the old paper diary. Despite evidence showing that electronic data collection for certain types of trials provides better data, people just don't "trust" anything but pen and paper (never mind the fact that patients could sit in their cars before an appointment and fill in a month's worth of dat…

That's quite a different use case from a one-time event with the results evaluated immediately.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#44
post #3

Can someone eli5 how an entire country that includes (big-fat assumption here) n > 0 computer scientist(s) is "fearful of hacking." Are we really at this point giving up on technology and becoming luddites?

When one's only tool is a hammer every "problem" seems like a nail, eh? Some things simply aren't improved by the introduction of computers.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#45
post #34
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the press digs up dirt on a candidate, should they not publish it until they dig up some dirt on their opponent? What if it's a foreign newspaper? Should Deep Throat's leaks not been published, because they would influence the election? What if he were a card-holding Democrat? What if he were a reptilian agent? I hate Trump as much as the next person, but there was no shortage of actual dirt that was dug up on him…

The press "digging up dirt" is surely different than the illegal hacking and wholesale release of all private email correspondence. Deep Throat provided info on the current President's illegal actions to a journalist, not just "dirt". Even if we accept that it is better to know the info in the DNC leaks, it is still a big problem if a foreign government can wield its influence so easily through illegal computer intru…

Leaking the Trump tax return was illegal. There was nothing illegal in the tax return. The Snowden leaks were quite probably illegal. Many of the things he leaked were not illegal. (Since this will never go to trial, we'll probably never know.) Should the press only report on legally-sourced information? They aren't a jury.

Good news for us, though - both illegal leaks, and illegal hacks are illegal. We already have a mechanism to deal with bad behaviour in this space.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#46

We only every needed technology to make sure ballots get encoded correctly. We could do that with open source software, commodity PCs and card punch machines and readers. Then validating that your choices were encoded correctly would be easier. So would counting. You could count at the voting location to get fast results and recount once the ballots arrive at the central office to confirm that the reported count was…

No I don't want you to move my vote before I can see it. Use computers to do the count fast and first if you want to, but I want paper receipts also stuffed into a box and I want to be able to observe the whole process and I want to be able to observe the votes being physically counted at the end.

Democracy gives so much legitimacy to her government that it will be gamed if it's possible.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#47
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wouldn't say that that somebody hacked Iceland's democracy. No, you wouldn't. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over the DNC hacks are all because the Democratic leadership is unwilling to accept responsibility for putting forward a bad candidate. Better blame the Russians, instead! If only the public didn't know the truth, we would have won!

You aren't wrong about the Democratic Party putting forth a weak candidate, but it is concerning that there weren't similar actions on the other side. The attacks were targeting a specific party alone and seem to be motivated by foreign geopolitical interests, not in the American public's interest. There is a reason we want equal time laws for example, because if I constantly hear one side of the argument, it doesn't…

Whoever it was actually did target the RNC, but as for your other point it still befuddles me how Russians not wanting a president who was threatening WWIII with them is some sort of groundbreaking revelation that proves this was an insane conspiracy and not just every day business by a nation looking out for their interests

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#48
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wouldn't say that that somebody hacked Iceland's democracy. No, you wouldn't. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over the DNC hacks are all because the Democratic leadership is unwilling to accept responsibility for putting forward a bad candidate. Better blame the Russians, instead! If only the public didn't know the truth, we would have won!

You aren't wrong about the Democratic Party putting forth a weak candidate, but it is concerning that there weren't similar actions on the other side. The attacks were targeting a specific party alone and seem to be motivated by foreign geopolitical interests, not in the American public's interest. There is a reason we want equal time laws for example, because if I constantly hear one side of the argument, it doesn't…

Just because one party was predominantly targeted doesn't mean they were sponsored by a foreign geopolitical interest. This could mean that guccifer 2.0 was a partisian (in America or abroad) acting on his own beliefs, or it could also mean that Democrats are especially bad with infosec and Republicans aren't.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#49
post #18

In France we count all ballots by hand. As every ballot station count only his ballots, it's quick. For a presidential election, maybe 30 minutes. The counting is done by the citizens, so no (easy) frauds are possible. All ballots are visible, the process is transparent, no suspicion. I personally think that a 30min delay to get the election results is worth the wait.

How are the results transmitted and tabulated by hand?

Not the OP, but my country runs a similar system. Each election station counts the ballots by hand. Anyone can signup for counting and/or watch the counting. It's mostly reps from all participating parties. Sometimes few independent citizens show up as well. After all people in the station agree on their total count (they can recount if needed), they phone in their numbers to the central station.

Raw numbers of each station are available publicly. The people who did the counting can check if their numbers were transmitted correctly. Parties usually have preliminary results from their people at stations way before the centralised system processes & publicises them. They'd easily spot any issues. Paper ballots are stored in secured bags and can be recounted if there is a need.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#50
post #34
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the press digs up dirt on a candidate, should they not publish it until they dig up some dirt on their opponent? What if it's a foreign newspaper? Should Deep Throat's leaks not been published, because they would influence the election? What if he were a card-holding Democrat? What if he were a reptilian agent? I hate Trump as much as the next person, but there was no shortage of actual dirt that was dug up on him…

The press "digging up dirt" is surely different than the illegal hacking and wholesale release of all private email correspondence. Deep Throat provided info on the current President's illegal actions to a journalist, not just "dirt". Even if we accept that it is better to know the info in the DNC leaks, it is still a big problem if a foreign government can wield its influence so easily through illegal computer intru…

Not sure that there's actual conclusive proof that the phishing attack on Podesta's gmail account was in fact carried out by an entity affiliated with the Russian government. All of the other accusations that I've heard along the lines of russian hackers hacking into the actual "election hw/sw" were laughable.

Funny thing is this alleged hacking was [supposedly] one of the reasons for demanding recounts in the states narrowly won by Trump and the only actual hard evidence discovered was "pro-Clinton discrepancies" in Detroit at which point the recount in the state of Michigan was stopped :)

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