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Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

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Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#41

Post by billybob »

jdrock wrote: post #28

"For its part, the Justice Department has taken a legalistic approach: a 17-page brief it filed last month acknowledges that federal law requires search warrants for messages in "electronic storage" that are less than 181 days old. But, Assistant U.S. Attorney Pegeen Rhyne writes in a government brief, the Yahoo Mail messages don't meet that definition. "Previously opened e-mail is not in 'electronic storage,'" Rhyne…

It's in the cloud, silly. See, the way it works is, clouds are flimsy things, so it's easy to just run tubes right through them and it doesn't even hurt. All the poor Justice Department wants is to run its own tube through the cloud before the terrorists do!

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#42

Post by protomyth »

ahoyhere wrote: post #37
protomyth wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to get a little touchy about this type of "word" stuff.... Your right, mobs are often ignorant, but some of the key moments in our history of civil rights were described by one side as mobs. I am not sure technical understanding is really the necessary item. I think it comes down to understanding the implications on your daily life. I know I get caught up in explaining the technical workings of things, but the…

I appreciate why you're touchy, but think about it: GOVT DEATH PANELS! That's all you need to know, to realize that the assessment of "semi-facts, lies, and emotion blended into an easily palatable gruel" is, in fact, the majority of Tea Party-er thinking. Not all of the people who are against socialized healthcare believe the "death panel" idiocy. Not all of them pretend they're doing some revolutionary act by joini…

Well, putting the whole bill http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3590/text on a billboard would be rather tough, so that's the sound bite that summarizes some of the believed implications of section 3403.

This actually goes along with the back and forth between myself and RevRal. To have a technical understanding of the bill, you probably need to be a serious specialist lawyer (after waiting for the RFP and rule making). Since most people don't fit those qualification, you tend to see people explaining the implications to people. One of the implications mentioned is cutting off money to do life saving procedures based on a medical panels ruling. In a world where people use the words "prolife" and "prochoice", I don't think "GOVT DEATH PANELS" is such a stretch.

(now to really wander) As to government socialized medicine. I grew up under US gov provided health care. They very nearly killed one family member, lost critical records on another, and misdiagnosed my and my brother's backs. I don't think all of those people are "hopelessly ignorant". I would imagine quite a few have family members "served" by the VA. Go google IHS and "don't get sick in June".

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#43

Post by rationalbeaver »

jdrock wrote: post #28

"For its part, the Justice Department has taken a legalistic approach: a 17-page brief it filed last month acknowledges that federal law requires search warrants for messages in "electronic storage" that are less than 181 days old. But, Assistant U.S. Attorney Pegeen Rhyne writes in a government brief, the Yahoo Mail messages don't meet that definition. "Previously opened e-mail is not in 'electronic storage,'" Rhyne…

What, your email isn't set to 'auto-print-then-delete-upon-open'?

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#44

Post by dantheman »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #20
eplanit wrote: post #10

I'll echo the advice I heard from Phillip Zimmermann back in the early 1990s: If everyone consistently used encryption for all their email (that's 'everyone', and 'all'), then the effectiveness of government access to email would be lowered to a near-moot level. The sheer complexity and resource requirements to decrypt _all_ email traffic would exceed the government's capabilities. I know the NSA has incredible capab…

Only partly. It still leaves header information open, so the government is still able to see who you talk to. Through traffic analysis they can see what groups you're likely to sympathize with, even if they can't see the membership roles. And they're able to tell when those groups are planning something, even if they don't know what.

Exactly, this is what the NSA wiretapping case was about. They weren't listening in on all the calls, they were gathering information on who was calling who and for how long. This is the most traditional wiretap because it requires a lot less effort and provides a lot of information.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#45

Post by lutorm »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #26
ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

Obama selected Joe "I wrote the Patriot Act" Biden as his VP. This is the same Joe Biden who tried to ban Turing machines because they could be used to encrypt files that the government would be unable to crack. Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway. For many people, "the government is violating privacy rights" is not a genuine policy position. It's just a club to beat their political opponents with.

"Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway."

In all fairness, given the range of options offered for American voters, I'd also have gone with Obama even if I didn't agree on everything.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#46

Post by danudey »

ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

There have been crazies ranting about how the government reads all your e-mail for years. Now that they're ACTUALLY trying to do that, no one is listening, because it's the same message as before.

If the people spouting unfounded conspiracy theories all the time would just shut the hell up, then maybe people wouldn't see this as crying wolf.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#47

Post by danudey »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #26
ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

Obama selected Joe "I wrote the Patriot Act" Biden as his VP. This is the same Joe Biden who tried to ban Turing machines because they could be used to encrypt files that the government would be unable to crack. Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway. For many people, "the government is violating privacy rights" is not a genuine policy position. It's just a club to beat their political opponents with.

Whatever you may think about Joe Biden, I can guarantee you he's a better VP than Sarah 'Drill baby drill' Palin (who now, ironically, has a TV series on Discovery where she talks about the natural beauty of Alaska that she kept trying to destroy).

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#48

Post by danudey »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #17
eplanit wrote: post #10

I'll echo the advice I heard from Phillip Zimmermann back in the early 1990s: If everyone consistently used encryption for all their email (that's 'everyone', and 'all'), then the effectiveness of government access to email would be lowered to a near-moot level. The sheer complexity and resource requirements to decrypt _all_ email traffic would exceed the government's capabilities. I know the NSA has incredible capab…

Another solution would be everyone using their own mail server (which itself uses TLS). Mail still isn't encrypted, but all the tunnels they travel through would be. But I guess this is just as hard as encrypting one's email, given the number of people which don't even mind having their mail systematically analysed by a big, profitable company.

Even that wouldn't help if your server is hosted in the US. If they really want access to your e-mail, they can just have your hosting provider give them access (or get the data for them), and under the Patriot act, they can't even tell you about it.

Another other solution would be to use e-mail providers (or hosting solutions) outside of the country. Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto, for example, have excellent connection to the US fibre networks (my company has its own pipe from Level 3 from Seattle to Vancouver). Host a server there, and no amount of government intervention is going to get your data, and hosting companies here (well, the good ones) won't give your data up without a subpoena or a warrant (and are able to tell you).

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#49

Post by tjic »

danudey wrote: post #46
ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

There have been crazies ranting about how the government reads all your e-mail for years. Now that they're ACTUALLY trying to do that, no one is listening, because it's the same message as before. If the people spouting unfounded conspiracy theories all the time would just shut the hell up, then maybe people wouldn't see this as crying wolf.

> There have been crazies ranting about how the government reads all your e-mail for years.

Yeah, those of us who were protesting Bill Clinton and Al Gore's backing of the Clipper Chip 17 years ago were just lunatics. It's not like we managed to stop a horrible government program or anything. It's YOU young heroes who are the first ones EVER to stand up for your rights against government monitoring communications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#50

Post by tjic »

ahoyhere wrote: post #35
kunley wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, living in Europe I see you in the US as a great example of society which dares to stand up and say "No!". By comparison, you are exceptionally well-educated, conscious and actively taking care of your rights.

As an American living in Europe, I can tell you your impression is sadly mistaken. I've never seen so many people exercising their right to free speech as in Vienna and Berlin, for example. And I used to live 15 minutes from the Capitol Building.

> I used to live 15 minutes from the Capitol Building.

So you lived in the imperial seat in the US, the one are where 75% of people are working for the government (directly or indirectly), and the one place that actually GREW during the current recession ... and you use that background to argue that Americans-as-a-whole are naive and love big intrusive government?

You see the logical flaw here, don't you?

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