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Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

news.cnet.com

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Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#11

Post by protomyth »

ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

I think people will protest what they know about. Regardless of your opinion on the people taking part in the tea party protests, there are a lot of people taking time off work or away from other activities to go to rallies. The economy is the front and center issues right now, and I really don't know what has to happen for online privacy to get a stage.

I am more concerned about the organizations that were so vocal during the last administration, since they seem to be out to lunch now. I really think your beliefs about what is right and wrong shouldn't change just because someone else got the job. I guess I want consistency of message and action.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#12

Post by roc »

ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

Particularly when those cuts are delivered by people wrapped in the flag, promising safety.

It seems we have healthier debate over the government's ability to pass blanket public-space no-smoking laws, than the executive's new-found legal ability to ignore the constitution, the judicial and the legislative at its whim.

You can get tens of thousands to protest the deficit, or health care reform, or gay rights - but the steady erosion of our rights barely raises an eyebrow.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#13

Post by CWuestefeld »

I can't help but notice the irony in the current top of the HN current story page.

2. Obama administration wants warrantless access rights to most US email (cnet.com)

3. Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued (philly.com)

It's pretty clear to me that even the most well-intentioned government powers eventually wind up being used in the most sinister and disturbing ways.

Edit: for posterity, the other story is at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1270579

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#14

Post by roc »

protomyth wrote: post #11
ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

I think people will protest what they know about. Regardless of your opinion on the people taking part in the tea party protests, there are a lot of people taking time off work or away from other activities to go to rallies. The economy is the front and center issues right now, and I really don't know what has to happen for online privacy to get a stage. I am more concerned about the organizations that were so vocal…

> "I am more concerned about the organizations that were so vocal during the last administration, since they seem to be out to lunch now."

Which organizations and how has their message or activity changed? Last I checked the EFF and ACLU were rolling right along with their press releases, briefs and lawsuits.

> "I really don't know what has to happen for online privacy to get a stage"

How about this? Why is this not enough? Why was the revelation of wholesale privacy invasion as in the well-publicized AT&T/San Fran case not enough? Why is the revelation of easy-access warrant-free 'meta-data wiretapping' not enough?

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#15

Post by ErrantX »

mtinkerhess wrote: post #8
tptacek wrote: post #4

First, this title editorializes the article, and summarizes it too aggressively. Second, while I agree that there's a problem here, the DOJ doesn't simply want "warrantless access rights" to "most US email". What it's claiming is more subtle: that mail that is older than a certain threshold and that has been open requires only a court order , and not a bona fide search warrant.

I'm confused. According to Wikipedia, a search warrant is a court order. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_warrant

There is a subtle but important difference in what they mean by the two. For a search warrant you have to demonstrate "probable cause" - i.e. that the evidence you expect to find is in the emails.

For a simple court order (which would just be an order to hand over something) they only have to demonstrate suspicion.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#17

Post by loup-vaillant »

eplanit wrote: post #10

I'll echo the advice I heard from Phillip Zimmermann back in the early 1990s: If everyone consistently used encryption for all their email (that's 'everyone', and 'all'), then the effectiveness of government access to email would be lowered to a near-moot level. The sheer complexity and resource requirements to decrypt _all_ email traffic would exceed the government's capabilities. I know the NSA has incredible capab…

Another solution would be everyone using their own mail server (which itself uses TLS). Mail still isn't encrypted, but all the tunnels they travel through would be.

But I guess this is just as hard as encrypting one's email, given the number of people which don't even mind having their mail systematically analysed by a big, profitable company.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#18

Post by RevRal »

protomyth wrote: post #11
ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

I think people will protest what they know about. Regardless of your opinion on the people taking part in the tea party protests, there are a lot of people taking time off work or away from other activities to go to rallies. The economy is the front and center issues right now, and I really don't know what has to happen for online privacy to get a stage. I am more concerned about the organizations that were so vocal…

Some technical understanding of this issue is prerequisite to understanding how the negative consequences outweigh the positive.

Most of the tea-bagging protesters are protesting stuff that is way over their head, but they don't need a good technical understanding of since the issues are dumbed down to terms which fit their competence. I'm afraid this issue has been dumbed down as well. "If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about."

Of course they'll treat this like a once-size fits all psuedo-ratiocination and utter it whenever something about "privacy on the internet" pops up.

Basically, I don't think this'll find its way on stage until it's too late. Like roc said, this alone should be enough.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#20

Post by CWuestefeld »

eplanit wrote: post #10

I'll echo the advice I heard from Phillip Zimmermann back in the early 1990s: If everyone consistently used encryption for all their email (that's 'everyone', and 'all'), then the effectiveness of government access to email would be lowered to a near-moot level. The sheer complexity and resource requirements to decrypt _all_ email traffic would exceed the government's capabilities. I know the NSA has incredible capab…

Only partly. It still leaves header information open, so the government is still able to see who you talk to. Through traffic analysis they can see what groups you're likely to sympathize with, even if they can't see the membership roles. And they're able to tell when those groups are planning something, even if they don't know what.
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