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Orbit by Mozilla

orbitbymozilla.com

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Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#391

Post by sebazzz »

ajcp wrote: post #321
drdaeman wrote: post #40

I guess I'm really not this extension's target audience, because somehow Mozilla managed to make me uninstall it in just a few minutes. First, they have forced telemetry. Okay, it's an early release, it's very basic information, they want to understand how they're doing - I don't like it, but I can understand it. Sets a wrong vibe, though - I had to check if it was from Microsoft and not Mozilla. ;-) Then, I figured…

> For the current version, we are using a Mistral LLM (Mistral 7B) hosted within Mozilla’s GCP instance. Based on this I would assume they are using GCP Vertex AI as that's going to be WAY cheaper than rolling it all themselves and hosting the model on a GCP server instance. I would also assume they'd be using the gcloud SDK for Vertex AI/Model Garden, which I believe means they can't just provide for a different end…

Would have been cool if you could connect it to a local running Ollama instance.

You metnion GCP Vertex AI, is that something like MS Copilot Studio?

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#392

Post by aucisson_masque »

Kuinox wrote: post #235
mentalgear wrote: post #181

I'm reading a lot of criticism here, some I understand, but honestly, this sounds pretty good for a free LLM service: "Orbit doesn't require account creation or save your session data." Maybe we shouldn't be too critical of Mozilla for providing a privacy-first LLM service - for free. The other big privacy-first LLM provider is Apple, which requires users to have their devices/subscriptions to use, and definitely use…

This is a local device LLM, outdated of a whole year, which is massive for LLMs, running on servers. Privacy side, there is little reason to run this on servers, a Pixel 6 could run 7B models at 5 token/s a year ago. It's bad by incompetence, 7B models of a year ago were terribly bad. It's not privacy-first enough, as it's possible to run the AI directly in the browser, but for some reason they didnt do it.

Not everyone has pixel 6 device, same for computer. There are still lots and lots of old device in third world countries.

Running a year old model, if it's power efficient and economically constrained makes complete sense to me.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#393

Post by jmathai »

sofixa wrote: post #361
ksec wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe we shouldn't be too critical of Mozilla for providing a privacy-first LLM service It is just Mozilla have a tendency of chasing hype rather than focusing on what they are doing. During early smartphone era they spend most of the resources trying to write an OS with Javascript ( Firefox OS ) that works on a $35 Smartphone. Now they are doing it again with AI. Although this time around Firefox is in fairly good…

> But they need to figure out a way to generate revenue rather than relying on Google Like by trying other things? Such as a mobile OS, "read later" app, LLM service which they could embed in Firefox? People criticise Mozilla a lot for even trying, but in the same breath say they should figure out alternative income sources. What do you think they're doing? LLMs are part of the hype cycle, yes, but maybe there's stil…

Correct. Making core Firefox better is not going to generate revenue.

Not sure what people expect, every bold new idea (I.e. mobile OS) is chasing something. And they are trying to do it while being open.

You’d think this HN crowd has never tried to create a sustainable business reading the comments.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#394

Post by sleepdeep »

idoubtit wrote: post #312
facialwipe wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During early smartphone era they spend most of the resources trying to write an OS Most of Mozilla’s resources have always been spent on Firefox. There was never a cycle where most of Mozilla’s resources were spent on FirefoxOS. But they need to figure out a way to generate revenue rather than relying on Google. The percentage of revenue from Google has fallen every year since 2016. Mozilla Corporation had a 33% prof…

> The percentage of revenue from Google has fallen every year since 2016. "Fallen" is too strong a word: Google still provided 81% of Mozilla's revenue in 2022. This share probably decreased in 2023, but that's mostly because the revenue increased by $40M thanks to financial operations (see "Interest and dividend income" in Mozilla's annual report for 2023).

Who will pay the bills when Google is forced to end that search contracts?

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#395

Post by ksec »

jmathai wrote: post #393
sofixa wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they need to figure out a way to generate revenue rather than relying on Google Like by trying other things? Such as a mobile OS, "read later" app, LLM service which they could embed in Firefox? People criticise Mozilla a lot for even trying, but in the same breath say they should figure out alternative income sources. What do you think they're doing? LLMs are part of the hype cycle, yes, but maybe there's stil…

Correct. Making core Firefox better is not going to generate revenue. Not sure what people expect, every bold new idea (I.e. mobile OS) is chasing something. And they are trying to do it while being open. You’d think this HN crowd has never tried to create a sustainable business reading the comments.

>Making core Firefox better is not going to generate revenue

Only because Google decide to pay more for less. Despite Firefox losing marketing share and users.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#396

Post by ksec »

sofixa wrote: post #361
ksec wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe we shouldn't be too critical of Mozilla for providing a privacy-first LLM service It is just Mozilla have a tendency of chasing hype rather than focusing on what they are doing. During early smartphone era they spend most of the resources trying to write an OS with Javascript ( Firefox OS ) that works on a $35 Smartphone. Now they are doing it again with AI. Although this time around Firefox is in fairly good…

> But they need to figure out a way to generate revenue rather than relying on Google Like by trying other things? Such as a mobile OS, "read later" app, LLM service which they could embed in Firefox? People criticise Mozilla a lot for even trying, but in the same breath say they should figure out alternative income sources. What do you think they're doing? LLMs are part of the hype cycle, yes, but maybe there's stil…

>People criticise Mozilla a lot for even trying,...Such as a mobile OS, "read later" app, LLM service which they could embed in Firefox?

But which of those did generate extra revenue? And mobile Os and LLM also happen to be CapEx intensive.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#397

Post by Kuinox »

freehorse wrote: post #305
zozbot234 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's possible to run the AI directly in the browser, but for some reason they didnt do it. Perhaps this is a proof of concept and they will have optional Firefox integration at a later time. Firefox uses local AI for webpage translation already.

A locally run 7B model would consume a lot of resources for most people, but it would be nice as an option.

Todat 1B models are better that the 7B models they use currently.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#398

Post by Abishek_Muthian »

ryukafalz wrote: post #327
daeken wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the Firefox OS team was ever bigger than maybe 100 people at the absolute most, and I feel like it was closer to half of that. Admittedly it's been over a decade since I left, so my recollection could be wrong, but it was never "most of the resources" by any metric. It was a tiny percentage of the overall staff; I traveled to the Toronto office to work with some of the graphics devs (the area I primaril…

As a user I always wished Firefox OS had stuck around - I think it would absolutely be practical today with so many PWAs around these days, and KaiOS seems to have done surprisingly well on its Firefox OS base.

Is KaiOS still being used in any newer feature phones? I believe even its biggest customer Jio Telecom has moved on to android in its entry level phones and any new feature phone I see here (India) occasionally are Nokia.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#399

Post by sitkack »

mdaniel wrote: post #116
sitkack wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox needs to be forked and owned by the people. I'd pay $1 a month for a browser run by the people. Management and extension options could be rolled out for government, business, education, etc. There are so many models where the browser thrives, the org that shepherds the browser thrives, and the people thrive. Firefox is like the shitty best option that camps out in its niche, it sucks but it is really hard to…

> I'd pay $1 a month for a browser run by the people. The bad news is that 12,000 other people would need to similarly pay per month to have a dev team of just 10. I know Ladybird is lean and mean but finding that big of an audience (or, of course, bigger) who would pay for a browser, per month, is likely a non-starter It would be a much more interesting proposal to start a bug bounty for the damn near infinite Bugzi…

I generally frown on calculating market size like this, but 10% of the top 1B is 100m, if 1% of those paid a dollar a month, that is a million a month. Good for 100 fang eng.

If Wikipedia can do it, a browser can do it.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#400

Post by mdaniel »

sitkack wrote: post #399
mdaniel wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd pay $1 a month for a browser run by the people. The bad news is that 12,000 other people would need to similarly pay per month to have a dev team of just 10. I know Ladybird is lean and mean but finding that big of an audience (or, of course, bigger) who would pay for a browser, per month, is likely a non-starter It would be a much more interesting proposal to start a bug bounty for the damn near infinite Bugzi…

I generally frown on calculating market size like this, but 10% of the top 1B is 100m, if 1% of those paid a dollar a month, that is a million a month. Good for 100 fang eng. If Wikipedia can do it, a browser can do it.

I hear you, and ironically I'm actually already in the target demographic of willing to pay for software I use and enjoy. Then again, I find that I am often an outlier in the "lengths folks will go to for good experiences" camp

Anyway, at this moment in my life I don't have the emotional energy to launch this project, but if someone does then please tag me and let me know

This project seems especially ripe for success because it doesn't need product market fit, it doesn't need requirements gathering, it just needs execution and a non-retarded bug tracking product

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