Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#391

Post by secabeen » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:19 PM UTC

N1H1L wrote: post #273

0d9eooo wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can figure out the reasons for university price increases, good luck. It's a combination of a variety of things. One is that increased demand for employers for "certification" of ability pushes demand for degrees among students. Every recession there's articles showing that those with a college degree fare better than those without. We can argue about why that is, but that's what the average 17 yo sees, along…

Also have you seen how much reporting requirements have increased for faculty? How much paperwork is needed for grants? Just today there was a story I read about a Georgia Tech professor who is under federal investigation for misrepresentation on her continuing NSF grant. And the money involved was $40,000. And one of her defenses is that Georgia Tech provided very little secretarial services to her. Which may very w…

This is all true. The cost of research is high. And although there are some additional costs involved in educating a more broad student body, it's nothing compared to the disinvestment in higher ed by state governments. Here's the ed department's data on expenditures. It doesn't show huge increases: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d18/tables/dt18_334.10.a...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#392

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:19 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #196

cableshaft wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colleges should be shaking in their boots for the next generation, because there's going to be a whole generation of parents that suffered terrible college debt they couldn't pay off and will likely be telling their children it's just not worth it (as opposed to the previous generation that had cheap college and a great economy and pressured all their children to go for that 'guaranteed better life'). I made it throu…

Also a generation of potential parents who won't be having kids because they can't afford to, largely because of student loan and housing costs. That's already hitting - the incoming class of 2023 (matriculating 2019) is the first cohort born since 9/11, and is tiny. A number of colleges are facing bankruptcy because there just aren't enough students to go around. And it'll only get worse. Birth rates were depressed…

People aren't stupid. They do respond to incentives and disincentives.

The debt load on young people is greater than the cost of raising a child to adulthood. By the time it is paid off, the urge to procreate has gone.

And those who turned baby-raisin' into a soulless, for-profit industry can choke on their sins, too.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#393

Post by areyousure » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #283

thelean12 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What state schools are $60k+ for 2 years for in-state residents? Berkeley was my guess for an expensive in-state tuition rate and they're $38k for 2 years. Unless you're including housing/food/etc.

UIUC is 25k a year just tuition and fees. Expensive college town room & board plus opportunity cost of education instead of working easily gets you to 30k a year.

https://admissions.illinois.edu/invest/tuition "Following are our estimated expenses for 2020-2021. Illinois Resident Tuition & Fees: $16,862-$21,956"

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#394

Post by lanewinfield » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #202

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

your comment reads like bukowski

was just going to say—I'd read your book.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#395

Post by teslabox » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

gnulinux wrote: post #357

contemporary343 wrote: post #195

A couple of points: not all colleges are created the same. Many state schools, particularly top-tier ones offer fantastic educations at an excellent price-point. They are a good value, and will remain so. Along with need-based aid and scholarships, they are amazing vehicles to reduce generational inequality (look at UCLA for example). I can only speak to the engineering (not software) side of things, but from lab wor…

I would personally consider the education I received in UC Berkeley when I was there studying CS, excellent. It was very challenging (in a way, it's impossible to exaggerate this), I found tons of help from TAs, my peers, professors were experts in their fields, labs were very useful to make me experience "real life" stuff and discussions were very useful to learn "theory" side of things, both of these occurring in t…

> I think we're simply discussing the wrong thing. Instead of questioning whether college is important for X, Y, we should be discussing how we can make every single American go to college.

Or we could help most people learn valuable skills in their first 13 years of schooling, so the only people who need/want to go to college are those who will actually benefit.

I saw a submission in /newest last night about how one of the actual purposes of American K-12 education is 'childcare': https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23027408

"Like pretty much every everything about schooling in the US ever, it assumes that what schools do – and all that schools do – is educate. [...] The fact of the matter is our primary school system is state-subsidized childcare for the vast majority of parents who cannot afford to raise their own children in our ghastly economy. That's been the case for the last 40-plus years. This isn't new, and if it's news to you, o reader, it's only because nobody much in the US has wanted to admit this evidence of the US economy being terrifyingly more broken than we Americans are prepared to confront."

While I appreciate that public schools are supposed to serve the interests of the public, the standard factory school model isn't doing anyone any favors.

The United States' College/University system is a much more valuable institution than the K-12 as commonly exists today.

The only reform really needed for K-12 is to transform it into an institution that exists to help children figure out what they're good at, and provide the resources to help them learn what they want to learn.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#396

Post by gwd » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:22 PM UTC

abnry wrote: post #379

gwd wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

I agree with what you are saying, except that we shouldn't say students are unequipped to evaluate the "bet" merely for being young and inexperienced. If we wanted to, we could train students to be much better at evaluating such a bet.

But the reason interest-bearing loans were considered immoral for so long, and the reason that nearly every other kind of loan can be discharged through bankruptcy, is that it is too dangerous to allow anyone to offer such a loan. There's nothing magical about student loans that somehow makes them safe, and no amount of training will change that.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#397

Post by notfromhere » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:22 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #122

runawaybottle wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable. No sympathy here for the college industry.

> I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable. I believe people who support such things think as follows: 1. $15k a year tuition for 4 years is a great deal if it turns you into a banker or programmer with a $150,000 a year salary and a 40-year career. Indeed, it would be unjust for a garbage man's taxes to be paying for a stockbroker's education. 2. Majoring in poetry migh…

Said 150k a year for 40 years generates more in taxes than the up front cost of the education, so said investment makes sense in terms of the public good.

With loans, the govt both makes a return on the interest AND a lifetime increase in net tax revenues.

Value of a college education goes beyond salary, and ideally creates a better informed citizenry.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#398

Post by fancyfish » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

contemporary343 wrote: post #195

A couple of points: not all colleges are created the same. Many state schools, particularly top-tier ones offer fantastic educations at an excellent price-point. They are a good value, and will remain so. Along with need-based aid and scholarships, they are amazing vehicles to reduce generational inequality (look at UCLA for example). I can only speak to the engineering (not software) side of things, but from lab wor…

I agree, as a Tier-1 dev. I went to a Tier-1 university and wouldn’t discount universities in Tiers 1-2 for the research, lectures, and resources they provide, in addition to the serendipitous environment where you will bump into other top-talent people.

Below Tier 2 I would support online learning to an extent, but having regular lectures and group work is important to keep an 18 year old on track. Universities need to instead cut superfluous spending on sports programs, new buildings, and layers of administration.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#399

Post by gonehome » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

jackcosgrove wrote: post #241

mywittyname wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

Colleges should not even offer loans for non-viable majors. Picking a major should not be like Indiana Jones picking which grail to drink from.

Even better would be true market rate pricing for majors.

Why are all majors 4 years? Why does a poetry major cost the same as an engineering major?

The universities say there's value in a liberal arts education beyond actual economic value? Fine, but someone is going to be subsidizing it somewhere - if the schools actually value it beyond the market rate and want to donate funds from more economically viable majors to it then fine, but it shouldn't be the students paying for the overpriced poetry degree.

If degree costs were reflective of their true economic value then there would be less risk. An economically useless degree would at least be cheap in cost (if not in time).

All majors being the same length and cost is a sign that something is broken.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#400

Post by cure » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

devit wrote: post #322

jedberg wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

Maybe it could be a percentage of all taxable income, kind of like giving out equity in the student themselves as a person? Although of course there is no reason for college in general to be particularly expensive.

I believe Australia has a system along those lines, with forgiveness for people who work in the public service sector.