Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#191

Post by burfog » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

matchbok wrote: post #4

xhkkffbf wrote: post #2

I wish I could be more sympathetic to the college industrial complex, but they've been treat us poorly for years. Yes, I know it's our fault for demanding gold plated educational experiences and then going into crazy debt to finance it. But who wants to blame himself/herself? The job can be done better for much less. Indeed, it used to be much cheaper in the past when the dorms weren't so fancy and there were a bazil…

Agreed, sadly the demand is still there. It's so easy to get huge loans and as a result, there is no downward pressure on price. My tiny college had 5 full-time staff for "residence life", plus a dean of that department. Totally unnecessary.

How exactly is it "so easy to get huge loans" for college? My kid needs that, but we see only $5500 available for the first year.

Did you instead mean loans that the parent takes on, perhaps as cosigner?

I'm seeing nothing beyond $5500 that can be obtained by a student.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#192

Post by Loughla » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

kazen44 wrote: post #88

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. If I understand the American system, there is pressure from parents as well. The students might not want the college to be so involved in their student life, but many parents would be unwilling to allow their children to attend an institution that is not highly focused on keeping them safe, to the point of treati…

which is just weird because well, at around the age of 18, most people should be able to handle themselves and they are not children anymore.

Should and can are two different things in the real world.

We can idealize what people should do, or we can work with what they can do. Not both.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#193

Post by zarkov99 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #182

zarkov99 wrote: post #157

This situation is exposing colleges as the scam that they are. Families are getting indebted up to their eyeballs, thinking are paying for education. In reality the education can be had for free. What they are really paying for is a sorting function, something that could also be had for free with national exams.

> something that could also be had for free with national exams. That just causes the money to be poured into national exam test prep like in South Korea or China.

Some money maybe, but "the money"? Korean and Chinese families are paying 250K per kid in test prep?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#194

Post by MattGaiser » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

EvanAnderson wrote: post #90

chadash wrote: post #25

I think it's time to decouple education from all of the other things tied to colleges. When I studied abroad in Australia, things like the gym or meal plans were available, but not "bundled in" to your tuition. The idea of tying competitive sports teams to a university would be laughable. We need to remove all of the "excess" stuff from higher education and get back to the core of education and research. Sure, things…

I've volunteered at a summer youth leadership camp held at a local state university since 1998. In the last 10 years the host university has undertaken massive construction of more "luxury appointed" dorms, recreational complexes, a huge basketball arena, and upscale dining halls. The justification was that it was necessary to do these things to compete with other colleges. I can't say that I've followed the cost of…

Students will actually pay for those things though and they are willing to pay a premium.

My alma mater is concerned about having to run online classes next semester as they usually pay for many of the costs with the residence money...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#195

Post by contemporary343 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

A couple of points: not all colleges are created the same. Many state schools, particularly top-tier ones offer fantastic educations at an excellent price-point. They are a good value, and will remain so. Along with need-based aid and scholarships, they are amazing vehicles to reduce generational inequality (look at UCLA for example). I can only speak to the engineering (not software) side of things, but from lab work to project-based design classes, I gained skills, knowledge and experience from well-trained instructors in a way that I think would be very difficult to begin to replicate in a remote experience.

Many, if not most students, can't learn effectively by themselves through online videos alone. Structure, assessments and regular interaction with teaching staff have real, measurable value.

Finally, the social networks that universities provide students and alumni are valuable. We're social beings. These networks open students to possibilities and careers they may not have considered. Of course, there are negatives to this as well.

Universities remain economic engines, particularly across wide swaths of semi-rural parts of the country. They create dynamic flows of people, ideas and capital that are undeniably important.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#196

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

cableshaft wrote: post #181

gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

Colleges should be shaking in their boots for the next generation, because there's going to be a whole generation of parents that suffered terrible college debt they couldn't pay off and will likely be telling their children it's just not worth it (as opposed to the previous generation that had cheap college and a great economy and pressured all their children to go for that 'guaranteed better life'). I made it throu…

Also a generation of potential parents who won't be having kids because they can't afford to, largely because of student loan and housing costs.

That's already hitting - the incoming class of 2023 (matriculating 2019) is the first cohort born since 9/11, and is tiny. A number of colleges are facing bankruptcy because there just aren't enough students to go around. And it'll only get worse. Birth rates were depressed from 2001-2009, but they fell off a cliff after 2009.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#197

Post by blhack » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

What is the job you do where somebody thinks you make flowers?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#198

Post by OldHand2018 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

wtvanhest wrote: post #34

sandworm101 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The adjunct professors get paid next to nothing. Let's give them a slight raise, fire 90% of the deans This is where the education industry can learn from the law schools. They are certainly ivory towers, but part of that tradition is that law school deans still ussually teach. My first year contracts prof was also the school dean. Law school deans remain largely 'first among many' rather than a separate professio…

Law schools are the worst offenders in the education industry. Only a small percentage of law students end up at big law where the salaries can support the debt load, but almost everyone leaves law school with a mountain of debt.

> Law schools are the worst offenders in the education industry.

They also are some of the best too. My wife went to a top-tier school and I remember the controversy when it was discovered that almost 50% of the tuition was actually given to the medical school. The justification was that they were a top school, they would charge what the other top schools charged, and they had a moral imperative to make the medical school as cheap as they could make it. They also guaranteed (in writing) that if any graduate had difficulty paying off student loans, the alumni network would step in and make the payments.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#199

Post by yardie » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

raiyu wrote: post #60

lumost wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the oddities in the college process is how public universities followed the price increases of their private counterparts. Why weren't state governments able to dictate effective cost controls to keep costs down for residents? Note that I'm aware of in-state tuition. The main campus of my state university charges 30k/year instate, and 40k/year out of state. Neither number is appropriate in a state with a media…

What I read was that the reason for in-state college tuition increasing so much was because of the reduction in property taxes. Typically property taxes go towards education at the local level, and as property taxes were reduced there would be a shortfall in the budget somewhere. This typically fell on education, which then forced colleges to start raising tuition as there is still a non-zero cost to education. There…

In my state, FL, derives most of it's income from sales taxes and fees. Property taxes are really local, down to the county and city.

> Decreasing taxes is like debt. Once you are hooked on it it's hard to go back.

Well some voters see the taxes as an investment in their city and community. My city passed a referendum to back a bond to pay for climate change projects and education programs. The state passed a constitutional change that has made it virtually impossible to raise taxes.

When I look at the midwest and the hollowing out of their cities I have to imagine the tax cuts partially contributed. But at the time they passed the politicians believed they would be a net positive.

It's a delicate balance. Taxes too high will drive businesses away. Taxes too low will reduce communal investment and drive people away.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#200

Post by Loughla » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #119

"Things that can't continue forever will stop." Education wasn't on a sustainable course anyway (no pun intended). They couldn't keep increasing costs, increasing numbers of students, living off of the work of non-tenure-track instructors who got paid a pittance, and growing the size and cost of the administration. I think that was getting close to the breaking point, even without Covid.

>living off of the work of non-tenure-track instructors who got paid a pittance

This is, in my opinion, the number one problem in higher education right now. Adjunct/associate/part-time faculty are good, many of them are great. But the experience with those people is just not the same as with full-time tenured faculty. When a faculty member is worried about whether or not they'll have a course load next semester, their incentives are vastly different.

This is a system that needs to die.

Source: I have worked in higher education for a couple of decades now. Adjunt/associate/part-time has exploded since 2009-10 or so. It's ridiculous.