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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#381

Post by josh-j »

jasonlotito wrote: post #354
josh-j wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a sane move if you want to discourage the culture that Adria is encouraging. Certainly her employers don't deserve any blame, though.

What culture is that? * Calling people out who violate PyCon's code of conduct? * Following this up by going to PyCon and getting it resolved? ( http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... ) Are we really arguing that people should keep silent when things like this happen? When a rule is violated? That they should only respond after it's taken place? Is that what people are really asking for?

I don't think assuming or mentioning negative talking points in the form of a question is a productive way to have a discussion.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#382

Post by [deleted] »

glass_of_water wrote: post #344
stephengillie wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "these jokes are sexist or offensive to women" was an axiom (in the logic sense) in my parents' religious household. It's incredibly confusing to see good and respectable people (like your friend) so eager to debase themselves with this humor.

How are they "debasing themselves with this humor"?

[deleted]

Re: The PyCon Incident

#383

Post by signed0 »

When I first heard of this I was expecting another "CouchDb: perform like a pr0n star" indecent. After learning that the offending comments were made in private, not by one of the speakers, and of their lack of explicitness, this entire thing seems entirely overblown.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#384

Post by edmond_dantes »

I am feminist. As a visible minority, heterosexual, cisgendered, able-bodied man I try to be acutely of my own prejudices and cognitive biases.

I sympathize with women who experience hostility and chauvinism at tech conferences. "Brogrammers" and male-exclusive behaviour is bad for the industry and should be written about and exposed.

What these two men did was not sexist. It was unprofessional but it was not exclusionary. Penis puns can be made by anyone and these comments were not meant for an audience, just the two people in question. While not "appropriate" it's not the same, "it's a joke" defense that many make because the subject matter, a play on the words being euphemisms in not material that excludes or generalizes.

Dongles = Penis, Box = Vagina (or workstation), Forking = fucking, etc... is not NECESSARILY exclusionary but of a sexual nature. Context matters. Based on the comments, she took forking out of context. IMHO: These men should have been told that they're a little loud and to knock it off (regardless of the subject matter). They are bot being chauvinists and not being exclusionary.

The firing is unfortunate but they sound like a company you don't want to work for anyway.

Adria was out of line for taking the photo but she's within her right to document her life/encounters. It does open her up to criticism. Personally I'd avoid her because of her inability to judge context and be easily offended. This incident hurts her credibility and I wouldn't trust her opinion in future incidents.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#385

Post by reeses »

mamoswined wrote: post #249
katbyte wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as "a women in tech" (god i hate even saying it like that lol) i totally agree. i think what she did was absurd. It wasn't even a lewd or offensive joke. Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. If it was bothersome in anyway it was they were so loud she was paying more attention to them and they private conversations and not the speaker. Sh…

as "a women in tech" (eeew) I also agree. It's like people don't know the difference between misogyny, which should be unacceptable, and bawdiness, which is a matter of taste. She must be really sheltered. But why did this person's employer fire them? I certainly wouldn't fire anyone for this reason and I would hire someone who made dick jokes for sure.

I may be overqualified, but please review my resume...

It's a poor decision, but if he was there "representing his company" (i.e., being paid while there) he probably tripped over a zero-tolerance policy on harassment.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#386

Post by freefrancisco »

wpietri wrote: post #297
ErrantX wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women feel that a lot. No, no they really don't! Don't get me wrong, there are major gender issues within our society (not just the software industry). One of them is, this idea that ''all'' women are tender hearted souls who are ''constantly'' scared of any man that looks at them funny :) There is a broad difference between discomfort and fear. And whilst the latter is significant, the core problem is the former.

You should talk to more women about this. I'm not suggesting women are scared little rabbits, running all the time. I'm saying that they are at substantial risk of sexual assault and other predation (US lifetime chance of sexual assault: 1 in 6), and are frequently aware of situations where they might possibly be in danger. It's an entirely rational response. I'm trying to help Joeboy see why well-meant and innocent-…

because tech workers are known to be rapists and any women in their vicinity is at risk of sexual assault, therefore any joke by tech men should be interpreted as a danger by women nearby.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#387

Post by run4yourlives »

numbsafari wrote: post #154
emiljbs wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very bad analogy though. Perhaps if it was an Indian who made a joke about how Indians talk/act, but even that's stretching it.

That doesn't make sense. It was a man making sexual jokes in front of a woman, not a woman making sexual jokes in front of a woman... and probably besides the point in any event.

Actually, it was a man making a joke about a body part that women don't even possess.

It's not a sexual comment any more than a fart joke is a sexual comment.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#388

Post by shardling »

ajross wrote: post #127
crag wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BS. I'm getting sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions. Now I do agree with you somewhat. I doubt she saw this "joke" as an opportunity to screw someone over (at least I hope so. If she did, then all bets are off); but that doesn't excuse her wrong. Her actions caused this guy to be fired. She needs to own it. Apoligize, Offer amends and move on.

Isn't the guy getting fired a symmetrical example of failing to take responsibility for one's actions? Presumably (and I'll say again: there remains NO actual evidence about this termination) he was fired for making an offensive joke in public. And he works for an employer that finds that to be a termination-level offense. Now, presuming he knew that: shouldn't he, too, be "taking responsibility" for his actions inst…

To point out the overlooked -- it's equally possible someone at his job tried to talk to him about the issue, and he reacted in a heavily negative way, refused to apologise, or otherwise acted in a way that triggered the actual termination.

Since we don't have the facts, we don't know, and folk are assuming the company over-reacted because it fits into the proffered narrative.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#389

Post by vor_ »

ahelwer wrote: post #76

Warning regarding the comments here: r/MensRights has recently taken an interest in HN regarding this case. A recent HN thread on this same topic is linked on the homepage[1], and there's been discussion of HN in particular here[2]. There's an agenda being pushed. Furthermore, the above PasteBin alleges the forking innuendo was pure fabrication in an attempt to paint Adria as a liar; the full story right from the sou…

The fact that there are some comments on Reddit calling Adria Richards a bitch doesn't seem relevant to this submission. You can find crazy opinions on the internet from either side of a politically charged story submitted here. The community here will filter the comments as they see fit.

I can't speak to the agenda of r/MensRights, or whether or not this is a case of feminism gone too far, but it must be said that your post is itself pushing an agenda to discredit comments posted here by implying that critical comments are Reddit plants linked to vitriolic posts you found there. After all, your Twitter feed states that you're a feminist and criticizes "gender role enforcement" on Hacker News, which suggests you're coming at this story from a predisposition. That's fine, but it means your warning may be tinted by previously held views.

To my knowledge, nobody is putting forth the worldview that men are being terrorized by women destroying lives. However, there are people who believe that losing a job over something so far removed from anything that actually matters as an overheard dick joke is step in the wrong direction for gender equality, especially when Adria made the same kind of joke herself.

As for calling her a liar, that stems from the discrepancy in accounts. The guy who was fired claimed there was no sexual innuendo in the forking comment, and that it was applied by Adria in her telling of the incident.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#390

Post by newnewnew »

wpietri wrote: post #155
SODaniel wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being able to make sexually explicit jokes in private at a public conference is absolute ludicrous. No question that the offender here is the person posting this out of context and seemingly out of spite.

This was not in private. Their mouths were, what, two feet from the ears in front of them?

For a diverse, pluralistic civil society to work people need to have thick skins. Especially at remarks not directed at them.

Otherwise we have an overclass who has the power to police the conduct of an underclass.

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