Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

pages.cs.wisc.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 429 posts

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#381

Post by jodrellblank »

cycomanic wrote: post #208
Isamu wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same package. 555 is typically a DIP-8, transistor packages are available in the same. So you would have to examine the cryptic markings and compare them with the other students, and that’s only if you suspected some fuckup on the part of the knowledgeable people.

But that's the thing that both students and often the teachers forget. We don't run labs to go smoothly, we run labs because you'll have to troubleshoot. There is no learning experience in a lab that works without issues, in fact IMO if lab instructions are of the step by step type, they should always have some deliberate errors in it to get students to troubleshoot. To play devil's advocate, just imagine the previou…

> "But that's the thing that both students and often the teachers forget. We don't run labs to go smoothly, we run labs because you'll have to troubleshoot."

Hands up everyone who remembers being taught that labs were supposed to go wrong and you were doing them because you will have to troubleshoot?

... anyone?

... anyone?

... Bueller?

Or is this just the typical internet John Galt like that other guy "no offense but why didn't you just already know everything and create an apple pie by creating the universe like I would have?"

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#383

Post by ziddoap »

alterom wrote: post #366
wholinator2 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem very angry yourself, and willing to let that anger guide you to harming someone. Are you so different from that teacher? In fact, you might be worse, while he only gave a grade (one of many surely, likely to have no long term impact on life prospects or survival), you would have this man made homeless? Don't be so quick to assume a teacher (at least in the us) has been able to accrue sufficient savings to en…

>You seem very angry yourself To whom? Not to me. Please don't try to assert you know what someone else is feeling. What they wrote wasn't angry. >and willing to let that anger guide you to harming someone. It's not anger that's guiding the call to fire the teacher that willfully mis-grades a correct answer because "they got mad" at the student for understanding the material at above-average level . It's the compassi…

Meta, but this might be one of the longest comments I have seen in reply to a couple sentences. Lots of condescension, emotions, and holier-than-thou in it, right before asking the person to not react emotionally. Fun stuff.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#384

Post by Bjartr »

anyfoo wrote: post #309
don-code wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good question! I didn't think to check the markings on the chip. The lab tech was convinced I was doing something wrong with my setup, and likewise he had me convinced it must be something wrong with my setup. Coincidentally, I've been knee-deep in some problems that I've applied the Cynefin framework to. I'd call this problem "chaotic", where throwing things at the wall might be _more_ effective than working…

No offense, but... when I was reading your story, I was somehow at least assuming that the marking on the part was somewhat unreadable or something... After getting befuddling answers, would it not have been natural to check the base assumptions, starting with do I have the correct part ? That is true as much in the "real engineering" world, as in school. You say "It could _never_ be the equipment's fault" as if it w…

I'd say it's not natural to check for the correct part that has been given to you by an authority that claims to have done so, but a learned problem solving technique.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#385

Post by miki123211 »

nicbou wrote: post #365
int_19h wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a general problem with large bureaucracies. If you're a cog in the machine, the safest way is to always stick to the rules, and avoid any situation where one has to exercise discretion, since any personal judgment comes with potential personal responsibility down the line.

I forgot where I read that large organisations are effectively accountability dilution machines. No one is fully in charge, and everyone gets to say that their hands are tied, that computer says no. This is the dark side of scale.

THe original version of that idea seems to come from "The Unaccountability Machine: Why Big Systems Make Terrible Decisions - and How The World Lost Its Mind", by Dan Davies (the "Lying for Money" guy.)

There's a shorter interview with him (in podcast form, includes a well-made transcript) going into these ideas at https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-or...

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#386

Post by freedomben »

fn-mote wrote: post #321
freedomben wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, but in this case it should be pretty easy to verify if the person is lying. The claim is highly reproducible and the instructor wouldn't even have to do it.

It's only "reproducible" if you find other 555's mixed in the shipment but not distributed to students. Depending on what the error rate in the shipment packing is, that might be very easy or it might be quite hard. At any rate, it's a stats problem that the professor is unlikely to want to engage with. Unfortunately. For the next semester, a good prof would have a QA step or a harnass that turns on a green light if…

I suppose, although if the student is able to show the prof with the tools that the chip they have (which based on the story should be visually identical or very similar to the rest of the chips) behaves incorrectly, that test can be repeated many times. It's possible the student could have acquired it elsewhere and is snowing, but even if that's the case the fact that they can do the analysis and show (and waited so long in the class to get there), and have the history of asking for help throughout the course, all add up to pretty powerful evidence IMHO. The prof could even do his own test with the chip if he doubts. It seems hard to believe that one student would intentionally try to "cheat" by making his life much, much harder. It's surely a path of much less resistance to just follow the book.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#388

Post by sriram_malhar »

ncruces wrote: post #368
freedomben wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, but in this case it should be pretty easy to verify if the person is lying. The claim is highly reproducible and the instructor wouldn't even have to do it.

How? What happens when students start buying faulty hardware to justify unrelated delays?

As a teacher, my first rule is, be kind. Sure, there are people who will take advantage of the situation, but they are not really taking advantage of me.

In this case, I'd have a harness that ensures the parts they were given work as advertised, and make it the students' responsibility to report within the first 3 days if it is not working.

Re: Electron band structure in germanium, my ass (2001)

#389

Post by freedomben »

ncruces wrote: post #368
freedomben wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, but in this case it should be pretty easy to verify if the person is lying. The claim is highly reproducible and the instructor wouldn't even have to do it.

How? What happens when students start buying faulty hardware to justify unrelated delays?

Yes, although just having the faulty hardware isn't enough. They also have to use the tools to show that it behaves incorrectly, which is surely a lot more work than just following the book would have been. That is the part that is easily reproducible. The student already knows how, so in a few minutes he can set it up in front of the prof and show him. The prof needn't do anything other than watch for a few mins.

If more of these cases crop up then you should get suspicious, but you also need to consider the impact of giving a student the wrong chip and expecting them to succeed! I think Blackstone's Ratio should apply here personally

Post reply on HN