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Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

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Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#381
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sceptical as to whether you can actually get blackballed, unless your misdeeds achieve a Hans Reiser level of publicity. I've had recruiters claim that if I use the offer they got me to negotiate a raise from my current employer, they'll make sure I never work in this town again - and yet recruiters keep calling.

>unless your misdeeds achieve a Hans Reiser level of publicity. Really. I know people with felony convictions for serious crimes who got back into the industry they offended against. It turns out that background check firms are only reliable when the applicant has no criminal background, heheh.

Ahh...not hot dog.

Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#382
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not know how to access such records. Doubt they are publicly available. Germany isn‘t perfect, but if you want to come, the blue card process is pretty straightforward. If you do python backend stuff, talk to me.

Alas, no, ruby. Does the "blue card process" require a job offer? Looks like yes, good to know that if you have that, it can be done. https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/eu... I wonder where I'd find software job postings in Germany (or possibly other EU) that are suitable for blue card (looks like salary must be sufficient, possibly other requirements). It is increasingly apparent to me that th…

There are job seeker visa as well, so that you can travel to Germany with the intention of finding a job. I'm currently recruiting an Indian engineer and he indicated that it'll take him about 2 months to get the visa.

> General Work Permit – You can apply for this type of German work permit if you have found a job in Germany which could not have been filled by an EU national. You don’t need to have extraordinary skills as long as you are qualified for the job. Highly Skilled Worker Permit – You can apply for this type of work permit if you are a highly skilled worker with a lot of experience and a high income. The EU Blue Card for Germany – You can apply for an EU Blue Card if your salary will be at least €56,800 per year or €44,304 per year if you are in a shortage occupation.

Software Devs are in such demand that any of these conditions are easily fulfilled.

Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#383
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why document? I've gotten that advice, but I've almost never seen it to be helpful: - It's almost impossible to win a law suit for being fired, unless it's clearly based on sex/race/etc. - If you sue, you'll burn bridges - If future employers find out you sued, they won't want to hire you. It's one of those things that's nice in abstract, but in practice, seems like a waste of time, relative to practising for intervi…

The main purpose of documenting is to show HR that you are documenting, which may get them to reconsider sketchy behavior. But beyond that you are right, suing for being fired rarely works and usually is worse for you than them.

The main purpose of documenting is to show HR that you are documenting, which may get them to reconsider sketchy behavior.

I respect the ideal state you’re shooting for here, but that “may” leaves too much wiggle room for HR sleight-of-hands. I sit here and tell you with a straight face I’ve watched first hand companies doing some pretty shady things under the banner of HR that raised several ethical flags, but because they weren’t outright illegal, when the employee came back with plenty of documentation they still walked away with no judgement, no settlement, and no job.

“Showing” HR that I’m documenting just seems like a REALLY good way to get a very large target painted on my back and… I don’t know if people want to show their hands like that.

Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, you're an employee. If management doesn't respect you, look elsewhere. You're working in IT, it's not like you can't change work. You'll risk getting less money, but if you're happier who cares?

Small note: there are people who cannot change work in IT because it would affect their visa or immigration status.

yup, I have to bear with the bullshit. I love my daughter man.

Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small note: there are people who cannot change work in IT because it would affect their visa or immigration status.

Thanks for pointing this out. I'm a U.S. citizen, but I have had friends that were not, and I was horrified to hear the stories of how companies (that I worked for at the time as well) were using that 'leverage'. I will no longer work for those sorts of companies.

It does not necessarily need to be something that companies actively do, it's also that the process is set up that way. For example, I know I was not actively seeking other opportunities until I got my green card. IIRC, even transferring to a slightly different role within the same company could affect how quickly the process progressed (I think part of the paperwork would need to be re-filed).

Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1-B transfer is possible if your potential new employer will perform the transfer with USCIS. (Edit: typo corrected, thanks kaapipo)

IIRC the transfer can affect the green card process depending on the stage you are at. IANAL, check with your immigration attorney.

(this also assumes that the person is on H-1B and not on L-1, which cannot be transferred)

Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#387

Ask the people you're talking to where the teammates are, the expectations of return to office. Ask them in the very first call. Either they'll be offended because they probably have nefarious plans (dodged a huge time waste), or they'll happily explain how their team is spread across 4 timezones and could never return to the office since there isn't one. Sadly "remote" is just a buzzword to a lot of people. But on t…

At my last role, I got all the way to the "signing your hiring paperwork" to find out that vaccines were mandatory for all new hires. Seeing as that's 30% of the workforce or so who isn't, and this being a senior level position, and a year more after they were first available (meaning, anyone who wanted to get a vaccine - probably would have already)... you'd think they'd bring that up day one. I about flipped shit o…

I think it's pretty reasonable to require vaccination as a condition for participating in some settings. Office settings being one of them.

But that said, I dislike surprises in employment agreement terms, and I've started to ask for people to send over their employment agreement along with offer letters so I can include terms in negotiation.

Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#388

It's hard to know what happened here without knowing the company and the internals - I know for Google, for the hiring committees I'm aware of (I'm a PM hiring committee member), we cant' even easily see where the candidate is based vs. where the role is based, and it's not something we take into account. We don't care, we just want to say whether the candidate passed the bar to work at Google, and from there it's be…

In the off chance you're open to feedback... I don't understand why the hiring committee had to be the last step in a months long process. If I'd gotten though the 5 grueling interviews and heard a "no", that would have been fine - these things happen. Instead, my last interview was in Jan and I got bounced by the hiring committee in March. I know that I was naïve, but I thought I must be set. I though the hiring com…

I am very open to feedback, thank you for sharing your thoughts. As a quick note just as a reminder, I'm on the PM side of things, so I don't have ANY influence on SWE hiring, and things might not work the same way over there. With that caveat:

Last interview in Jan and hiring committee in March is a terrible experience, and I'm sorry you had to deal with that. When I notice a packet where the interviews were more than a month prior to my seeing them in committee, I ask why, because it's a bad experience. The reasons I have seen that happen are:

- The interview feedback was mixed, and the recruiter wants to go line up a hiring manager to write a statement of support to the committee to help make the case, and that can take time.

- The hiring manager who was already attached has to pause hiring, or is in final talks with another candidate, or goes on leave, and something gets dropped for a while

I'm sure there are others, but those are the big ones. BTW, neither of those are acceptable reasons for things to have gone the way they did for you, I'm just sharing how I have seen it happen.

I'm not sure if you team matched before or after your interviews - at least at Google, they mostly used to team match after interviews and hiring committees, and are now pivoting to team matching BEFORE interviews, partially to avoid experiences like you describe. If a hiring manager is interested and engaged and supportive upfront, they can help push and move things along. In addition, if interview feedback is universally positive, they're looking at skipping hiring commmittee entirely, or doing a lighter review in the interest of speed. In general, I think these are positive changes that hopefully will streamline things, but it's new and we will have to see.

One point I do want to address is that hiring committees, at least at Google, are not rubber stamps or sanity checks before hiring - we are expected to carefully review each interview against the assessment rubrics, read the notes, ask follow up questions of the interviewers as necessary, privately vote, and then jointly come to a consensus on our recommendation.

Of the packets themselves, those are largely negative don't even go to hiring committee, so we only see the ones where there's at least mixed positive and negative feedback or better. I would estimate that perhaps 10% of the packets I see are "hire" or "strong hire" across the board, and those are the ones where it's a quick sanity check to make sure that nothing unusual happened (e.g. one interviewer was the hiring manager and two others were people who report to the hiring manager). Those are easy, it's great, but it's the exception.

Most packets are a mix of positive and negative feedback, because people are people and conversations are hard, and you're trying to remove as much bias as possible, but stuff happens. Maybe the interviewer wanted a particular answer they didn't get, or maybe there was a misunderstanding, or maybe the candidate got flustered. So when someone says "TC did poorly on this dimension", you look at the notes to see if you also see that, you try to interpret whether something else might have been going on, and then you go look in the other interviews to see if maybe signs of that dimension show up there, positive or negative. Positive? Maybe it was a bad discussion, and you can focus on the other positive signals in the other interviews. Negative? Seems like maybe this is a gap in the candidate's skills.

I'm absolutely not trying to defend your experience, because it's indefensible, and I try to raise a stink when I see it happen (which is not that often). But I wanted to add some context about the role of the hiring committee and the work that goes into making those determinations.

Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#389
I have yet to work with an external recruiter (not an in-house one) that wasn't horrible at their job. I'm aware of how much a recruiter can make when placing someone and it's surprising to me that the world of recruiters doesn't look more like real estate (where repeat business is their bread and butter). I wish I had friends/coworkers who could recommend a competent recruiter but I've only ever heard horror stories from them as well.

All recruiters I've worked with have the following failings:

1. Zero, and I mean zero, knowledge of anything technical and/or related to tech. They will fumble/mixup frameworks and languages constantly. I'm not asking for deep knowledge but it's not hard to learn about the big frameworks (just the names and generally what they do "frontend framework", "backend framework", "ORM") and google is free.

2. Terrible communication. They will ghost you or miss scheduled calls and then come up with sob stories of why they couldn't even send a text/email letting you know they wouldn't be able to make the meeting

3. Liars. They will lie about any and everything to try to place you. Have a tiny blurb about a lang/framework on your resume? They will mis-represent you as an expert and/or they will lie to you about what a company is looking for.

4. This is a part-time gig at best for them. Before I learned all recruiters were terrible I tried contacting a recruiter I had talked to in the past when I was looking for a new job, of course they weren't doing recruiting anymore. There must be massive turnover in this industry.

5. Lazy. 2 jobs ago I literally handed the recruiter the company I wanted to work for on a silver platter. I was young and native and thought I needed to go through a recruiter even though I knew the company was hiring. They failed at the simple task of handing the company my resume. I ended up contacting the company directly and was hired within a week. I never heard from that recruiter again, they didn't even follow up.

I know that real estate has high turnover as well but there /are/ good agents out there. Do good recruiters even exist (not talking in-house)? Every time I switch jobs I consider quitting tech and just becoming a tech recruiter because they are all so terrible and I know I could do better.

Re: Tell HN: Recruiters are lying about remote positions

#390

I’m sure there are talented recruiters but generally I’m lucky if they connect any dots properly. Things like: “I see you have years of experience on X, here’s an opening in Y”, or “I found your resume , here’s a job in $faraway_city!”. In other words, they barely seem to read resumes or anything else so if they totally screw up key details of the position, that is probably par for the course. (Insert rant about losi…

> I’m sure there are talented recruiters but generally I’m lucky if they connect any dots properly.

I'd love to meet one. Every recruiter I've worked with had trouble walking and chewing gum. It's infuriating that they aren't better at their jobs given how much they can make by placing even 1 developer.

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