Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#381

Post by Natsu » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

tmp538394722 wrote: post #363

Natsu wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said that's what ketamine is used for. I never said he was on drugs, as I do not know that. I only said that it's not normal to need a bunch of people to hold someone down.

> It's used as a treatment for drug overdoses ("excited delerium") which appears to be why it was used here. Why does it “appear” that way? Please edit your post rather than spreading misinformation.

Those on the scene certainly thought this was the case, which is basically the only reason they use that drug in the first place in the context of an arrest. I don't claim to know one way or another whether they were right, but I would note that dying of a heart attack is inconsistent with ketamine as the cause.

Maybe they gave him too much, but the article leaves one to conclude that this was somehow related to his death even though it never actually says so.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#382

Post by Natsu » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 10:31 PM UTC

shadowfacts wrote: post #372

Natsu wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's used as a treatment for drug overdoses ("excited delerium") which appears to be why it was used here. Of course it's a catch-all term, there's no way to tell offhand just what street drugs someone is on. There has to be a reason it took half a dozen people to hold him down. Also, there's no mention in this article of police directing the paramedics to do anything. Can you point me to what gave you that idea?

"Excited delirium" is a pseudo-scientific term used by police to justify their use of excessive force: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/chokehold-police-exci...

It's a catch-all term to describe people who have likely overdosed on various stimulants. To argue that it's non-specific is to argue that the police have no way of knowing what medical conditions underlie the problem.

That's why they summon medical professionals, as was done here and in other similar cases.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#383

Post by fuzxi » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

quickthrowman wrote: post #141

chrisseaton wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pay attention when you hear someone’s weight to see if it matches your heuristic I don't think I've ever heard an adult male ever mention their own weight in public. You can see why it'd be hard to estimate when you don't have any data.

You’ll have to get a job at a county fair running the weight guessing attraction to get enough data. There’s no other way to do it, it’s how we all figured out how to estimate the weight of a human. I’ll call my friend Chucky, he’ll get you a gig in a traveling carnival for the summer.

Or simply any job that requires checking IDs. Bouncer, bartender, cashier in a store that sells alcohol/cigarettes, etc.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#384

Post by ashtonkem » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

minitoar wrote: post #298

ashtonkem wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death. This is the behavior I’d expect from a serial killer. Edit: they then distributed or showed this photo to the rest of the precinct. We know because a whistleblower notified the media. To my eye, this means that they expected the rest of the precinct to approve of this behavior, which is extrem…

This shouldn’t be alarming. This is consistent with the behavior we’ve been seeing all year. This is status quo.

The difference between our points is the subtle difference between alarm and surprise. I’d contend that one can be alarmed even if they’re not surprised; although even I am inclined to admit that this is pretty low value pedantry on my part.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

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Post by ashtonkem » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 10:43 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #260

wonderwonder wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be really surprised if they estimated this poorly and would guess they were just irritated by him and decided to up the dose as punishment. If I am wrong then they receive zero training when estimating weight and multiple officers are terrible at it. To mistakenly confuse a 140lb for 220lb is poor judgement to the point that it strains credulity.

It doesn't strain credulity for me. Most descriptions of the black victims of police brutality by law enforcement inflate them to a monstrous size, and use animal metaphors to describe their terrifying faces. Never underestimate the degree to which racism is driven by actual, irrational terror.

There are actually documented cases of police officers in the early 20th century requesting heavier calibers and hotter loads from gun manufacturers because they believed their firearms were incapable of stopping an enraged .

Biologically, this is utter nonsense. But the belief that black people are tougher, stronger, and more capable of withstanding pain and drugs is a surprisingly common belief. Doctors are notorious for downgrading black pain in clinical situations as compared to white patients, and administer less pain killers.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#386

Post by ashtonkem » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 10:45 PM UTC

dirtnugget wrote: post #258

bsanr2 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The uncomfortable truth is that authorities regularly misidentify black men as being bigger/taller/older/darker than they actually are. Whether that's an issue specific to police indoctrination or to American culture in general, it's clearly part of what happened here. Apologies to the HN users who will be incensed at the notion of race playing a role in this situation.

Even today a common misconception among white doctors is that black people have thicker skin than white people or even that their nerv endings are less sensitive. https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-we-fail-black-patient...

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, cops in the early 20th century requested larger calibers and hotter loads from gun manufacturers because they believed black people survived gun shots better than white people.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#387

Post by ashtonkem » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

timmytokyo wrote: post #351

puranjay wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death What compels someone to do that?

Nothing compels them. It is who they are. And they are not alone in being like this. The better question is, why are so many people in positions of authority like this?

Another police department got caught bending down the notches on their police badges as a way of signifying how many kills a given officer had, and even had a ceremony for officers first kill. Reports say at least 25% of the precinct participated, probably most knew.

American police live in what we call a “siege” mentality; they believe that they’re the only thing protecting society from chaos and crime. This results in a belief that their actions are inherently just, and that any criticism risks exposure of society to the chaos they’re barely holding back.

It’s not a convincing pitch when viewed in the light of blatant police brutality, but it appears to be what they believe.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#388

Post by newacct583 » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 10:52 PM UTC

gwright wrote: post #277

newacct583 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don’t even know why they’re there... but they know that they need to indiscriminately dominate a young black man until he’s puking and crying and ultimately has a heart attack. And this, for the benefit of folks here who still want to treat these incidents as individual aberrations, is what BLM is about. Sure, police can be good or bad, sometimes make mistakes, etc... But POLICING , as it is practiced in this…

> I don't see how you "reform" a culture like that. You do it through hard work on real reform at the local level, something that BLM (the organization) isn't really interested in. I don't agree with everything but the ideas outlined here https://www.joincampaignzero.org are a good start. Some communities are in much worse situation than others and I think new leadership is urgently needed in many of these places (i.…

> Instead of a civil police force you will end up with an ad-hoc collection of private security, thugs, violent gangs, protection rackets, and so on

Uh... I don't think that's what I said, at all. I said we need new cops and a new law enforcement organization, because the old one is polluted beyond redemption.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#389

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 11:02 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #267

guscost wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think all the other non-“notable” people executed in one of those things got the appropriate legal protections too? Anyway I’m just trying to say that if you want to apply the most unfriendly interpretation to some happening in America, in order to compare it to “non-American Marxist regimes”, at least be consistent.

> You think all the other non-“notable” people executed in one of those things got the appropriate legal protections too? Why bother even reading up on it if just making things up will work? You think everyone in China is a saint? Why would somebody go through all of the time and expense to execute you if there weren't a reason?

> Why would somebody go through all of the time and expense to execute you if there weren't a reason?

We'll he's got $50K worth of bullets in him. He must have done something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#390

Post by IanDrake » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 11:05 PM UTC

tjpnz wrote: post #230

selectodude wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A taser is basically ineffective when used on somebody high on PCP. If they're violent enough, you basically either need a tranq dart or a gun.

Meth is a problem everywhere yet cops still manage to apprehend suspects without anyone dying of a drug induced heart attack in the process.

And I swim all the time without drowning, yet swimmers drown all the time. So what?

This isn't a software function, there are thousands of factors involved and a cop is walking in knowing a handful. I don't think you're being realistic.