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Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

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Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#211

Post by vorpalhex »

p0llard wrote: post #105
burfog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

I live in a country where we don't inject people with ketamine on the street, nor do "criminals run amok". We also don't have armed gangs imposing "their own idea of a justice system", and we have fewer police killings in 25 years than the US has in 25 days. I imagine your comment is probably symptomatic of the major societal issues within the US; it certainly worsens the image of the US to those fortunate enough to…

What country is that? And, you realize that the US has 300m people, correct? You will have to compare per-capita stats, not total numbers.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#212

Post by jupp0r »

tehwebguy wrote: post #158

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I hav…

On the other hand: at least they are asking medical professionals instead of giving shots themselves.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#213

Post by newacct583 »

tmp538394722 wrote: post #178
wittyreference wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" You’re waxing hyperbolic. It’s a sedative drug used in normal human clinical practice, and in many settings is preferable because it has -fewer- risks of complications than other sedatives. And while I’m highly critical of it’s being used without strict medical protocol, I’ve worked psych ED enough to understand that there are occasi…

Elijah McClain was not “ridiculously agitated”. The video shows that police escalated every chance they got. After receiving a phone call of a “suspicious person” they went from in their car to hands on Elijah in less than 10s. In a matter of minutes Elijah was on the ground surrounded by a dozen officers. They’re saying “was he suspected of anything”, “why are we here”? They don’t even know why they’re there... but…

> They don’t even know why they’re there... but they know that they need to indiscriminately dominate a young black man until he’s puking and crying and ultimately has a heart attack.

And this, for the benefit of folks here who still want to treat these incidents as individual aberrations, is what BLM is about.

Sure, police can be good or bad, sometimes make mistakes, etc... But POLICING, as it is practiced in this country, is a horrifying disaster. And at this point it seems almost completely beyond rescue. We need new cops, new practices, new laws, new equipment, new training. I don't see how you "reform" a culture like that.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#214

Post by non-entity »

projektfu wrote: post #190
p0llard wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to a judge or a police officer, probably not I'd naively hope that a judge wouldn't side with a police officer here, but I think the fact that resisting arrest is inherently criminal is a pretty big flaw in the US legal system. I live in a jurisdiction [1] where resisting arrest is not criminalised in the same sense as the US, and the idea that a police officer could unlawfully arrest you and then immedia…

Since the '70s it feels like law enforcement (and juries to some extent) are informed by two movies much more than the Constitution and case law: Dirty Harry and Death Wish.

I saw a interesting clip on TV a while back where they played several clips of various popular police dramas in which the main characters use wildly illegal or unconstitutional tricks to get confessions from criminals. Things like physically assaulting them while contained and. turning off cameras in interrogation rooms to do so. The point it was trying to make was that this "desensitized" people to police violence. Of course, the criminals in the clips were things like child predators, serial killers, etc. so it was all justified.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#215

Post by jcims »

jessaustin wrote: post #110
jcims wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. There are 140lb men and women that could calmly choke you to death. Somewhere in that alltercation you will progress from trying to subdue them to fighting for your life, at which point you will throw all rules out the window and willfully violate any and all lawful progression in the use of force continuum. Hopefully your demise will be captured on video to use in training…

You're also making assumptions here. Lots of out-of-shape programmers have been in fights. Lots of out-of-shape programmers weigh more than twice what this victim weighed, and still move well. Also, get out of here with that "women" bullshit: that proves all your implied expertise comes from watching TV. The attitude here is typical of bootlickers, however. Never mind that there were a dozen cops present. Never mind…

You were so excited to haul out 'bootlicker' that you didn't really even try to think about what I was replying to. Maybe next time.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#216

Post by miked85 »

RantyDave wrote: post #35
throw32890 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you were semi-conscious, could communicate, but could not move. I am afraid that is excellent drug to pacify someone. If we defund police and add more women in police force, we will see much wider use.

Unfortunately it turns out the police can't read instructions and have a tendency to put far too much in. It's almost like people who administer drugs need some kind of training...

> It's almost like people who administer drugs need some kind of training

You mean like paramedics? The article states that paramedics administer the drug.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#217

Post by wonderwonder »

chrisseaton wrote: post #87
dirtnugget wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

How do you estimate the weight of a person? I know how much I weigh, but I don't know how much anyone else weighs. I guess some other people don't even weigh themselves so don't even know how much they weigh. How do you estimate it?

A very large part of police work is providing and reacting to descriptions of suspects. If there is no training on this provided then this seems to be a very large oversight. Based on the fact that police constantly arrest and harrass people who 'matched the description' perhaps there is no training, or perhaps the officers simply don't care and are just looking for a person that fits their bias.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#219

Post by notassigned »

esperent wrote: post #205
notassigned wrote: post #197

I don't think it's helpful to assume the police were racist.

Absolutely true. However, there is not much assuming being done. The absolutely stark, clear, and unassailable fact that many police in the US are violent, racist thugs has been repeatedly shoved into my face over the last few months. Not all of them are, by any means. But even the good cops are part of a system that enables and rewards racist, thuggish behavior.

Well I can't argue with that since you said 'many' police in a country of 350+ million people. But what is many? 5? 100? 1000? It's easy to pick these instances and assign blame retrospectively when in reality, things like this almost never happen. If the guy had pulled out a gun and shot the cops in the head, we wouldn't have heard a thing about it. Business as usual.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#220

Post by Natsu »

Yc4win wrote: post #151

To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this. To think of all the complications in a person's body from experiencing a drug that puts your conscience in a literally black hole (K-hole) is just sick. It's wrong.

Ketamine is one of the most used human sedatives. It's also available by prescription (esketamine) and I know someone who used it under medical supervision.

This use is also medical, to try to help calm people who have major drug overdoses and save their lives. As with all things medical, sometimes things go wrong. It's not clear to me that the ketamine had anything to do with the death, nor does the article even make that case. Cardiac arrest is the literal opposite of what one would expect of someone dying of too much ketamine.

Instead, it talks about police training... even though medical professionals are the ones who inject this on site. There's a reasonable call for medical standards and study, but not a whole lot else.

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