Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#371

Post by vmception » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 8:08 PM UTC

guscost wrote: post #131

vmception wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you care about hearing a serious response, I think most Americans would agree that this protocol is on the wrong side of the line, but at the same time not thoroughly murderous in intent. It sounds like an extreme tactic that should be re-thought, and it is perfectly legal and normal for me to share this opinion or organize votes for change. In China there are “execution vans” with no other purpose even suggested:…

For anyone passing by, my flagged comment said:

"Agents of the state randomly jumping you, beating you up because of their unilateral and arbitrary determination that you are resisting being randomly jumped, and then injecting you with a sedative and psychoactive so powerful that you die? No, that's a distinctly American version of civil rights.

They might also arbitrarily take your property, while everyone gaslights you into thinking that this is a staple of non-American marxist regimes."

This was an accurate and a substantive comment which is only guilty of bruising a few egos.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#372

Post by shadowfacts » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 8:23 PM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #201

tehwebguy wrote: post #158

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I hav…

It's used as a treatment for drug overdoses ("excited delerium") which appears to be why it was used here. Of course it's a catch-all term, there's no way to tell offhand just what street drugs someone is on. There has to be a reason it took half a dozen people to hold him down. Also, there's no mention in this article of police directing the paramedics to do anything. Can you point me to what gave you that idea?

"Excited delirium" is a pseudo-scientific term used by police to justify their use of excessive force: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/chokehold-police-exci...

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#373

Post by minitoar » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

antioink wrote: post #328

minitoar wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shouldn’t be alarming. This is consistent with the behavior we’ve been seeing all year. This is status quo.

It should be alarming - it's important not to get used to such abhorrent behavior, just because it's the status quo.

I cannot maintain a state of alarm for years on end.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#374

Post by sneak » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

antioink wrote: post #324

scarface74 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it’s not about abolishing the police. “Defund the police”, which I agree is a bad term, is about focusing some of those funds on social programs and only calling the police for true criminal causes. I am definitely not a conservative on most issues, but I am a strong believer in the right to have a gun in your own home and the various “Castle” laws. If you break into my house or try to take my car while I am in it…

> I am a strong believer in the right to have a gun in your own home and the various “Castle” laws. If you break into my house or try to take my car while I am in it, I am going to assume you mean me harm. Shoot first then call the cops. Do you know how absurd this sounds to people in actual civilized countries? Kind of amazing how many of you Americans are living in some Wild West fantasy.

Do the police in your country have guns? (Trick question. The police in every country, even Japan, have guns.)

If an armed attacker breaks into your home, would not the first thing you do be to call someone to bring a gun over quickly to protect you and bring an end to the risk?

This is no different than keeping a fire extinguisher in your home versus relying 100% on the fire brigade to protect you.

Firearms are safety equipment, nothing more. The fact that you equate a common tool, used in every civilization in the world, to “some wild west fantasy”, says more about the baggage you attach to it than that which exists in reality.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#375

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #374

antioink wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a strong believer in the right to have a gun in your own home and the various “Castle” laws. If you break into my house or try to take my car while I am in it, I am going to assume you mean me harm. Shoot first then call the cops. Do you know how absurd this sounds to people in actual civilized countries? Kind of amazing how many of you Americans are living in some Wild West fantasy.

Do the police in your country have guns? (Trick question. The police in every country, even Japan, have guns.) If an armed attacker breaks into your home, would not the first thing you do be to call someone to bring a gun over quickly to protect you and bring an end to the risk? This is no different than keeping a fire extinguisher in your home versus relying 100% on the fire brigade to protect you. Firearms are safe…

> Firearms are safety equipment, nothing more.

The first half is at least arguably true, the second half is...not.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#376

Post by fareesh » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

comfyinnernet wrote: post #368

fareesh wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Policemen do one of the toughest jobs in society, especially in places where crime is high. Society owes them a great debt for enforcing the law because there are some hard criminals out there who would run amok if a weak and ineffective police force were the norm. Armchair criticism of the police with zero consideration for their point of view is not helpful to anyone, most of all victims of crimes.

If the police are acting like Judge Dredd and murdering people then a weak and ineffective police force is exactly what you have.

Is there some empirical metric where this can be demonstrated as true?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#377

Post by bluntfang » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

igneo676 wrote: post #366

It's worth reading up on Ketamine and its use medically before coming to conclusions based on this article. Notably: 1. EMTs are generally under the oversight of a head doctor and aren't supposed to take actions outside of what they're directed to do there. Even if instructed by a LEO 2. Ketamine is a relatively safe drug used for a variety of purposes. While it may calm down someone experiencing stress, it can also…

what do you think about rubber bullets and other "less than lethal" weapons that kill people sometimes?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#378

Post by sesuximo » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #309

sesuximo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says that 17% of uses in Colorado lead to complications. —- Also, I googled “Canada” and “Australia” alone with “Ketamine” “police” and got nothing. Can you support your claim that other countries do this?

> Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Austria) by paramedics, The original claim did not say anything about police. You interjected police. However, I searched for "australia paramedics using ketamine" in DDG. The first page was nothing but pages regarding Colorado. Page 2 returned a more relevant study of Australian paramedics using Special-K[0]. I then searched "canadian paramedics using…

I guess that makes sense. However, it seems like perhaps the interjection is paramedics since the top level article is about police (mid)use of k.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#379

Post by burfog » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #167

musha68k wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

De-escalation skills can be learned. First class psychological training and counselling could be the norm. One gains a lot of respect by showing wisdom and courage. Most scenarios are essentially communication problems to be solved. Not defaulting to the most violent means of "cooperation" is and should be an option for any police force in a 21st century democracy. Look to the best in the past and in other countries.…

What's really sobering is that, in my personal experiences as a middle-class American white man in his 40s, police have always been really good at de-escalating things. I haven't always agreed with them, but they have always cooled things down nicely without resorting to violence or even arrests. Training varies widely by locale, but I believe de-escalation is indeed a nearly universal part of their training. It must…

All of that is seen through the filter of the media. They have a story that they want to sell. They need to grab eyeballs. They are also political, and so they want to push what helps advance their own political goals, even if it tears the country apart.

Specifically, every one of these is subject to selection bias:

  "nearly always white"
  "unnecessarily violent tactics"
  "nearly always Black"

You won't see a news report when the tactics are peaceful, when a black cop is involved, or when the supposed victim is non-black. Nobody is going to riot over that, so why report it? It goes unseen by you, so you get the wrong impression about reality.

A different sort of bias comes into play with word choice, using "victims" to refer to people who typically are violent criminals being apprehended. The word ought to be "perpetrators", "suspects", or simply "criminals".

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#380

Post by burfog » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #79

burfog wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cops also use pepper spray. It's against someone's will, by non-cooks, for no culinary purpose. Cops also use electric stun guns. It's against someone's will, by non-electricians, for no electronic purpose. Mind proposing an acceptable method of restraint? Go ahead, and see people tear it apart as a human rights violation. It's much like the hopeless situation in bad schools, where all possible methods of discipline…

But surprisingly, even in “good schools”, when the same offense happens by minorities vs. non minorities, it is criminalized when done by minorities. I was amazed at the stories my son told me about kids getting caught with drugs, hitting a coach, vandalizing property and all that happened was that the parents got called and a few days of suspension and the police were never involved. Because “kids will be kids”. Of…

That's a different school, run by different people. It does not prohibit attendance by students of any race. The only bias I see is that of the parents, who pay a housing premium to avoid being associated with some kinds of people.

The local people choose the school board, which then chooses the school policy and administration.

School policy is limited by what is allowed and by what seems to work. If the parents usually are quick to discipline students for misbehavior, then parents will be relied upon to do so. If the parents ignore or encourage misbehavior, there is no reason to involve them. The police will be called instead.