You either participate in your church for theological reasons or you participate to be a member of a club. It seems like many of the negative commenters here attended church to be in a club.
The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
381–390 of 537 posts
Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
#382Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s a minority view that is of little relevance today and which will become even less relevant as Asians, Africans, Chinese, Latin Americans, and Indians rise to cultural and economic dominance.
> It’s a minority view that is of little relevance today It's the majority view where I live (European Union) and it is also the law here, and there is little reason to think that this will change in the foreseeable future, so pretty relevant to me, I would say. > and which will become even less relevant as Asians, Africans, Chinese, Latin Americans, and Indians rise to cultural and economic dominance. Why does there…
> We’re talking about a social rule here, not a legal one.
Legal rules don't exist in a void, they usually originate from social norms. Of course, social norms evolve, and so do laws.
> Is your family or community entitled to tell you you’re raising your children wrong,
Entitled? Of course not.
> and must you graciously accept that criticism?
Must? No. It is wise of me to consider the criticism of those that earned my respect, as well as it is wise of those whose respect I earned to consider mine. But again, respect is earned. My parents were very nice to me and deserve all of my respect, but unfortunately I have witnessed many situations were parents do not deserve the respect of their children. It's not an automatic status that comes from procreating.
> In almost the entire world, including much of Eastern Europe, the answer is “yes.”
Also in my own culture (Southern Europe) until not so long ago. I know of cases of children being driven to suicide because of such norms. No thanks, I prefer the new norms here.
> That is the better answer.
That is your opinion, but if you care to provide an actual argument I am willing to listen.
> The places where that answer is not true are not only a minority, but are declining in cultural significance. (Arguably, the dead-end detour into a highly individualistic culture is partly responsible for that decline.)
You seem to be obsessed with the collapse of western culture. I'm not sure what this even means. We are all confronting a global existential crisis (climate change), perhaps time to let go of these petty conflicts?
Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think having your members tithe is a big part of it. I know some wealthy mormons that have always given their 10%, at least that's what they tell me. I also know a couple of really large mormon families, like 12 kids large - they all tithe.
> at least that's what they tell me. Assuming the countless anecdotes on /r/exmormon are to be believed, nobody really gets a choice. Your local leaders will browbeat you and try to look over your financials if they don’t feel you are tithing appropriately.
Local leadership quality in the church varies wildly, since there's no formal training and they're unpaid positions. My bishops growing up were all great guys, but there are absolutely exceptions, and I'm sure that happens.
Also, as other people have mentioned, /r/exmormon isn't exactly a representative sample of exmormons. It was useful to me as someone who was questioning my faith and later dealing with family as I was leaving the church, but now that I'm in a healthy place, there's no reason for me to spend time there and I haven't been on in years. That's pretty common, and the end result is that the majority of long-time active posters are people who've been out for years but are still bitter/angry/whatever and need that outlet.
Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
#384Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s because most Catholics never go to church anyway. But they certainly do care if you don’t baptize their grandchildren.
They do, but it's also not uncommon for Catholics to violate any other precept, e.g. divorce. It's a very lax culture, in this age, in the developed world. I have plenty of Catholic friends who decided not to baptize their children, grandparents weren't happy but it's rarely a reason to truncate relationships. Edit: anecdotal evidence, of course, YMMV.
I don't go to Mass, but there was no question we were going to baptize the kids. In part, that's because the Catholic youth sacraments happen on a pretty well-defined schedule and it's weird (socially) to get them done off that schedule, so baptizing (and First Communion, which both of my kids also did) preserves optionality.
Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
#385Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, and that is besides the point. Liberal western democracies are not perfect, but they get a few things right and this is one of them. I believe that children are not cattle, and I would keep believing that even if 100% of everyone else thought otherwise.
I’m thinking you’re reading “community property” more literally than I intended it—with the focus on “property” and not “community.” Obviously children are not property. But children are also not independent adults. They must be socialized. Legal codes all over the world, including the UN Declaration of Human Rights, recognize that parents have a right to choose how to socialize their children. My point is that commu…
I think the words you're using here are --- if not unclear, then at least "not carefully chosen to avoid offending this particular audience", but the point you're making is pretty straightforward, and it's not hard to think of comparable secular parenting decisions that we generally have no trouble criticizing parents over.
But there's also a subtext here, which is that there's a distinction to be made between good-faith, substantive parenting critiques and externally-mandated arbitrary critiques. If there's institutional pressure to ostracize former members of a community, that's problematic. I think you probably have to acknowledge that subtext to really engage on this topic --- which, who could blame anyone for not wanting to really engage on religion on HN?
Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
#386Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a fair critique, because I did not qualify the statement. Let me explain the rationale: - The Mormon church doctrine is that people who leave have fallen away, and are apostates - Several messages from the central authority (called General Authorities) have disseminated over the last several decades telling congregants to shun apostates (soft), not listen to them (direct), and similar - Wealthy parents have be…
I was raised Mormon, no longer believe a bit of it, yet find your characterization does not match my experience at all. I have never felt characterized as "apostate" by family or friends after leaving, and while in the church I never recall any leader or anyone else encouraging not leaving money to family who left the church. I'm sure these things happen to some, just not me. I found the problems in the church to be…
> I was raised Mormon, no longer believe a bit of it,
I've been outspoken in this thread, and I have to agree. My immediate family knows, but my extended family (cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents) operate on a don't ask don't tell kinda policy. At first when I left there was shunning, but only from my dad. I did have to rebuild that relationship, but there were other stressors in our lives.
> I found the problems in the church to be more subtle and less obviously cult-like.
I have also called the church a cult, in this thread, and I can't agree more. I cannot stand others from the outside telling me how Mormons are the kindest people they ever meet. But they don't know that underneath it all it is with the intention of conversion. I will say, that this comes from a good place and that they are trying to do good, but the church doctrine does a lot of harm itself. There is a very secretive nature to the church that appears to me to be cultish. And I think unless you've been on the inside you don't see the two faces. The church is good at being subtle, and I think the WSJ (and other) article is evidence of how good they are at keeping secrets.
Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
#387That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…
Tax payer (since they use all the benefits of all of U.S. taxpayers without contributing a dime.) funded real estate for private church ownership.
Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
#388That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…
It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?
Different Christian denominations have different relationships with wealth --- ranging from a "high church" tradition of inspirational grandeur to pseudo-evangelical "prosperity churches", as well as denominations that reject all that stuff, and the LDS relationship is unique and (in a relative sense) pragmatic. I don't think your blanket statement really applies here.
Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
#389Mormons are heavily involved.im pyramid schemes and outright ponzis.
Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
#390Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does your belief system require you to be so disparaging to people who believe differently? If you don't want to pay any attention to the claims of Christianity, then by all means don't.
No, but I'm pretty happy with seeking its demise. Christianity, along with the rest of the abrahamic religions, are a corrupting plague on our planet and society. That which is good about it is not unique to it, and that which is unique to it is not good. We are stagnant in our progress as humans to the degree that we still believe in it.
So, intolerance is the way forward?