The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church • Hacker News Board

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#81

Post by zozbot234 » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:39 PM UTC

dagmx wrote: post #68

zozbot234 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious orgs are a time-tested model for providing sustainable and widespread social cohesion, which is a huge positive externality and also protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression. The tax exemption seems obviously warranted on that basis alone, even abstracting away from any of the more visible charity work or social support that these orgs usually provide.

I'd definitely not agree with the "protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression" Perhaps if you are a member of the church, but definitely not if you don't abide by the exact, often conservative , rules of a given church. Look at slavery, equal rights for lgbtq and people of color, abortion etc. Not only do people in power use the churches to hide their personal beliefs behind, many churches us…

Conservative churches are a subset of all religious organizations, and most of the time they're just a mirror of overall society, or a sizeable portion of it anyway. And that portion often draws some very real benefits even from an outwardly "conservative" or "fundamentalist" church. Not everyone starts out being radically open-minded and averse to tribalism, some people have to be eased into that kind of stance and churches can help provide good role-models. The crusades were a thing, but there's a reason why few or no religious organizations go on literal "crusades" nowadays.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#82

Post by weare138 » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:41 PM UTC

camhart wrote: post #50

weare138 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God." -Jesus Matthew 19:24

Why do you think it's more difficult for a rich person? Does giving a tithe encourage or discourage the behaviors that make it difficult to make it to "Heaven"? Think on it.

Jesus never advocated giving tithes or even churches for that matter.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#83

Post by PavlovsCat » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:41 PM UTC

jshevek wrote: post #65

tomrod wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that we haven't met, dorian-graph, this starts with the assumption that what people like me went through is trivial. For decency sake I ask you to reconsider this as a default position. In order to get my records at least flagged as no longer a Mormon, thus to keep random visits from local congregations from occurring, I had to get a lawyer involved. In order for my children to not be repeatedly hounded by some…

Your suggestion that " this starts with the assumption that what people like me went through is trivial" is a non- sequitur. You made a generalization, the response above simply suggests a more nuanced view. They did not suggest anything about your specific situation. Edit: Specifically "It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact" was the generalization. When I read this I also th…

> I hope someone points out that it depends on the circumstances and the people involved

But it doesn't. The keyword is "allow". If someone happens to manage with their dignity intact, that is not with the blessing of the organization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-Mormon#Consequences_of_leav...

If I say "I don't allow anyone to steal from me", that doesn't mean nobody ever stole from me, or couldn't possibly ever. It simply means that if it happens, I don't condone it.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#84

Post by themodelplumber » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:42 PM UTC

Iwillgetby wrote: post #78

Question as a member. Would today be a good day to request that janitorial services be restored? Do I really need to clean the church's toilets once a year to get to heaven?

The cleaning is part of the church's treasured psychology of self-reliance, not just a money thing. In fact the money could be argued to have emerged from that self-reliance psychology, even if it's also true that a psychology can be emphasized within an organization or individual to a relatively pornographic degree (detached from current/realistic context).

Plus they've been selling off buildings since they are such a maintenance suck.

But still, it's an amusing thought and I see no reason not to try :D

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#85

Post by tomrod » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:42 PM UTC

jshevek wrote: post #65

tomrod wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that we haven't met, dorian-graph, this starts with the assumption that what people like me went through is trivial. For decency sake I ask you to reconsider this as a default position. In order to get my records at least flagged as no longer a Mormon, thus to keep random visits from local congregations from occurring, I had to get a lawyer involved. In order for my children to not be repeatedly hounded by some…

Your suggestion that " this starts with the assumption that what people like me went through is trivial" is a non- sequitur. You made a generalization, the response above simply suggests a more nuanced view. They did not suggest anything about your specific situation. Edit: Specifically "It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact" was the generalization. When I read this I also th…

That's a fair critique, because I did not qualify the statement. Let me explain the rationale:

- The Mormon church doctrine is that people who leave have fallen away, and are apostates

- Several messages from the central authority (called General Authorities) have disseminated over the last several decades telling congregants to shun apostates (soft), not listen to them (direct), and similar

- Wealthy parents have been encouraged by the central authority to not leave inheritance to their wayward children, and to use it to keep them adherent to Mormon orthopraxis

- Parents and congregants are often encouraged to be very bold in their attempts to keep wayward congregants adherent (until the congregants admits disbelief). "Ward Council" and similar organizing local leadership sessions are intended to share gossip to identify potential wayward congregants

- quitmormon.com is a pro bono service set up by a former Mormon in Utah and is the only service I've seen that is able to get records removed from the Mormon database records. If one does not remove their records, the central authority instructs local congregations to find people to keep their database records up to date.

These mix together and result in a large variety of experiences, often where the targeted wayward congregant is stripped of dignity and, eventually, respect in the eyes of people they spend substantial time with.

These issues are organization-wide and centrally driven, and hence the organization does not allow you to leave with dignity.

EDIT: I realized I made the "wealthy parent" comment across several comments. This is not connected to my experience, as I do not come from wealth whatsoever, but is something that has been observed in the past few years. I mention solely to point out the systemic issues I see.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#86

Post by camhart » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:43 PM UTC

gherkinnn wrote: post #42

x1oqw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

I find a lot of people invoke Christ, but have little to do with his teachings. Amusingly, his ideas align more with beliefs held by “the young left” than by “the old right”. (Yesyes, bad terms but you know what I mean) And yet the real-world allegiances are inverted.

You're missing the role of agency (or choice) in your evaluation. Forcing someone to do something vs someone choosing to do it of their own accord is quite different.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#87

Post by tasogare » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:44 PM UTC

dagmx wrote: post #68

zozbot234 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious orgs are a time-tested model for providing sustainable and widespread social cohesion, which is a huge positive externality and also protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression. The tax exemption seems obviously warranted on that basis alone, even abstracting away from any of the more visible charity work or social support that these orgs usually provide.

I'd definitely not agree with the "protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression" Perhaps if you are a member of the church, but definitely not if you don't abide by the exact, often conservative , rules of a given church. Look at slavery, equal rights for lgbtq and people of color, abortion etc. Not only do people in power use the churches to hide their personal beliefs behind, many churches us…

> Look at slavery, equal rights for lgbtq and people of color, abortion etc.

What are your talking about? I know no church that possess any slaves. Also, most christians around the world aren't white...

> I mean the crusades were a thing...

Yes, a defence after centuries of aggressions from a people and religion that stole huge territories. The invader showed no pity against non-believers and this attitude persists until now with thousands of killing every year worldwide while crusades are long gone.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#88

Post by mattigames » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:44 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #53

cultus wrote: post #39

I cannot fathom why churches are automatically tax exempt. Regular nonprofits have to jump through all kinds of hoops to prevent these kind of shenanigans. We are supposed to have a secular government. How is it that we single out this one class of institution for special treatment?

Religious orgs are a time-tested model for providing sustainable and widespread social cohesion, which is a huge positive externality and also protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression. The tax exemption seems obviously warranted on that basis alone, even abstracting away from any of the more visible charity work or social support that these orgs usually provide.

Any sources on that? The genocide of pagans in the dark ages and the persecution of Jews by Muslims among other events point me to believe the opposite.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#89

Post by annoyingnoob » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:44 PM UTC

starskublue wrote: post #79

It's important to note the historical context around this. The LDS church used to be constantly in extreme debt and close to having their religious buildings taken away due to it. Then in the early 1900s they instituted a simple financial policy that could also be an example for members. 1. Spend less than you take in. 2. Save/invest a portion of what you bring in for a rainy day. Thus over a hundred years that build…

I think having your members tithe is a big part of it. I know some wealthy mormons that have always given their 10%, at least that's what they tell me. I also know a couple of really large mormon families, like 12 kids large - they all tithe.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#90

Post by zozbot234 » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 3:45 PM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #77

zozbot234 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious orgs are a time-tested model for providing sustainable and widespread social cohesion, which is a huge positive externality and also protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression. The tax exemption seems obviously warranted on that basis alone, even abstracting away from any of the more visible charity work or social support that these orgs usually provide.

But then that disadvantages groups which might perform the same role outside of a religious context. Thus in practice it only serves to have Government favour a specific genre of cohesion. (Not to mention that your so-called “cohesion” also includes Scientology, Westboro Baptists and prosperity theology.)

Government does not perform "the same role" of building up social capital at a truly grassroots level, unfortunately. Not even close. And the jury is still out wrt. non-religious social organizations, though some do appear to help quite a bit along those same lines, viz. labor unions and perhaps similar "interest-focused" mass groups.