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The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

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Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#41

Post by mythrwy »

mattrp wrote: post #24
mythrwy wrote: post #11

Churches should go back to being churches. No reason a religious organization needs a 100 billion warchest. What they are planning to eventually do with it? Buy off my local pol? Buy Utah and secede? Never mind the advantageous tax treatment enjoyed. This disturbs me.

Before I even clicked to see the comments I knew this sentiment would be here. Why is it that anytime a news article is published about some org having a lot of money someone has to say something like this? They have a lot of money. So what? I’m also under the understanding everyone of their members has a years worth of food too. Kind of prescient with cironavirus running around? Full disclosure - I’m not a Mormon.

Of course the sentiment is here! Because it's reasonable!

Look, I got no problem with what people believe or how they pray. But 100 billion isn't needed for that so the purpose is??? Will it involve me? And the tax treatment complaint is also perfectly reasonable.

None of this is hatred for private property nor religion.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#42

Post by gherkinnn »

x1oqw wrote: post #19
tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

I find a lot of people invoke Christ, but have little to do with his teachings.

Amusingly, his ideas align more with beliefs held by “the young left” than by “the old right”. (Yesyes, bad terms but you know what I mean) And yet the real-world allegiances are inverted.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#43

Post by kingkawn »

cultus wrote: post #39

I cannot fathom why churches are automatically tax exempt. Regular nonprofits have to jump through all kinds of hoops to prevent these kind of shenanigans. We are supposed to have a secular government. How is it that we single out this one class of institution for special treatment?

A historical descendant of the compromises necessary to remove the Church and other such institutions from centrality to political power

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#44

Post by dorian-graph »

tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

> For the record I left several years ago, but have many family members still heavily involved. It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact.

I've seen people leave with and without. As to why they've not left with dignity, it's sometimes not one-sided.

Edit: For those who are making many negative guesses and assumptions about my comments. My comment had nothing to do with the OP's personal life at all (as I know nothing about their personal experience). My comment was simply to make a counter-claim to the blanket statement that the church allows no one to leave with dignity.

The OP has since shared more details about their personal experience, which was absolutely a terrible experience in every way. It's awful that they, and their family, had to go through that. If I feel so awful about it, have I ever attempted to reduce the likelihood of such things happening? Yes! I have.

I have also seen people leave the church without any great undue process or negativity—or loss of dignity (in my interpretation of what was meant by dignity).

Edit [2]: There has already been more than 1 other person comment, who has left the church, who didn't experience any of the negative things that the OP did. That doesn't mean that OP is lying, exaggerating, or anything, it's simply my point—OP's experience is not the universal experience, nor the officially designed experience. Is OP's experience more common than it should? Absolutely yes.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#45

Post by dnautics »

Findeton wrote: post #20
mythrwy wrote: post #11

Churches should go back to being churches. No reason a religious organization needs a 100 billion warchest. What they are planning to eventually do with it? Buy off my local pol? Buy Utah and secede? Never mind the advantageous tax treatment enjoyed. This disturbs me.

I would be happy if churches had exactly the same status as any other business. Nothing less, nothing more.

It's very easy to incorporate different types of businesses under tax exempt nonprofits under codes that are not 501(c)3. The problem is if you are not incorporated as a nonprofit, if someday you flip to losing money because you're giving it away, the irs will not be happy, and may move to revoke your incorporation.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#46

Post by tomrod »

mattrp wrote: post #24
mythrwy wrote: post #11

Churches should go back to being churches. No reason a religious organization needs a 100 billion warchest. What they are planning to eventually do with it? Buy off my local pol? Buy Utah and secede? Never mind the advantageous tax treatment enjoyed. This disturbs me.

Before I even clicked to see the comments I knew this sentiment would be here. Why is it that anytime a news article is published about some org having a lot of money someone has to say something like this? They have a lot of money. So what? I’m also under the understanding everyone of their members has a years worth of food too. Kind of prescient with cironavirus running around? Full disclosure - I’m not a Mormon.

> So what?

It's how they got the money (typically manipulation[0][1] and free-will donations) and how they spend the money (politics, for-profit ventures) [2][3].

[0] http://johnlarsen.org/mormon-expression/ Episode 250

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/7p09zl/today_i_le... LDS Philanthropies produced a video encouraging wealthy people to leave inheritance with the LDS church to keep their kids in line.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8:_The_Mormon_Proposition

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Book_Company

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#47

Post by geerlingguy »

lr4444lr wrote: post #2

How much does the Roman Catholic Church have, especially when you appraise the artwork?

Note that the financial structure of the Catholic Church is vastly different; there's the Vatican, and hundreds (thousands?) of dioceses, then parishes (most dioceses treat their parishes as somewhat independent entities), and finally charity organizations like Catholic Charities in the USA (which are completely independent, financially).

So it would be a lot harder to have a holistic idea of the financial health of the global Catholic Church.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#48

Post by xrd »

A prior discussion of Clay Christianson mentioned how he wouldn't play basketball on Sunday because it was the first small step that leads to larger steps (of sinning). This is a massive amount of money.

I'm struggling to understand if this money was gathered under the tax exempt status of churches in the US. And if this isn't a bigger sin than playing basketball on Sunday, if you believe in sinning.

Remember, downvotes are just like playing basketball on Sunday...

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#49

Post by dorian-graph »

x1oqw wrote: post #19
tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

> when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money

I'm guessing you're talking about the moneychangers being thrown out of the temple?

There are examples recorded in the scriptures of tithes and offerings, and also of a people preparing/amassing the relative wealth/supplies (Noah, Joseph, etc).

There are multiple levels of preparedness taught in the LDS church. The lowest, the family, being to only have necessary debt (e.g. university or a house) and to have 3 days of storage for in case of emergencies for your own family (or individual self), or to help others. Then in some areas you have Bishop storehouses. It goes up and up.

> I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ)

Why does the LDS church do it?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#50

Post by camhart »

weare138 wrote: post #25
x1oqw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God." -Jesus Matthew 19:24

Why do you think it's more difficult for a rich person? Does giving a tithe encourage or discourage the behaviors that make it difficult to make it to "Heaven"?

Think on it.

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