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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#381

Post by vkou »

close04 wrote: post #355
vkou wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just how democracy works, else I can just secede if I don't like the result of the elections. What's wrong with self-determination?

You still do it within the context of existing laws. Democracies rely on leadership by majority so you have to operate within that system. If it worked the way you imply what would be the limit to what you can justify with “self determination”?

> You still do it within the context of existing laws.

Existing laws may be undemocratic and unjust. If your bar for secession is legality, I will have to point out that the United States should still be part of the British Empire (The revolution was illegal), Hong Kong should pipe down, and stop protesting (They are bound by CPC laws, which have ruled the protests illegal), and most of Africa should still be governed from London and Paris (Most of it did not leave in the context of existing laws.)

> what would be the limit to what you can justify

There really isn't one, but six people seceeding their house is not going to be a minimally viable country for very obvious reasons. When you secede, you lose a lot of benefits, including economic, military, etc, protection from neighboring states.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#382

Post by ErneX »

vkou wrote: post #381
close04 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still do it within the context of existing laws. Democracies rely on leadership by majority so you have to operate within that system. If it worked the way you imply what would be the limit to what you can justify with “self determination”?

> You still do it within the context of existing laws. Existing laws may be undemocratic and unjust. If your bar for secession is legality, I will have to point out that the United States should still be part of the British Empire (The revolution was illegal), Hong Kong should pipe down, and stop protesting (They are bound by CPC laws, which have ruled the protests illegal), and most of Africa should still be governe…

Taxes are unjust, let's try not paying taxes and see how it goes.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#383

Post by rtkwe »

lostphilosopher wrote: post #314
rtkwe wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And they see this people is using P2P technology which is almost impossible to control, so they use all legal means at their disposal. I'm not a legal expert but I'd bet that going through the terrorism route is the only way they have to do something about it. Framing it another way they're using trumped up terrorism charges to invoke powers that were not meant to be used against protests. Police powers are intenti…

This is a fundamental question any government or citizenry has to ask itself: Under what circumstances, if any, should the police stand down?

It's a very tough question and not one that's ever really answered formally. The US Constitution has a vague definition but the line has been redrawn and erased so many times.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#384

Post by tassl »

ErneX wrote: post #360
ivalm wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catalan are not majority of Spain. They cannot themselves change the constitution, yet they do not want to stay in Spain. So it's a fake "way." The majority should not be allowed to bully the minority.

So if I don't want to be part of the new Catalonia I can secede my home or join with a few neighbors to be independent from Catalonia? We have a constitution for something it's a not a Chinese vase to glance at it.

The argument of "I can secede from my home" is reductionist, simplistic and overall insulting to any group of people that want independence from the country they depend on or have fought for independence in the past.

Most countries today are independent even though it was illegal for them to become independent before they did. Poland or Estonia would still be part of the Russian empire. Austria and Hungary the same country, same with Czech Republic and Slovakia would still be Czechoslovakia. Malta and Cyprus would be part of the UK. And this is just a quick look to Europe of the 20th century.

We can go back and argue that the US couldn't/shouldn't be independent of the UK. And Cuba part of Spain. The question remains the same: why do people, outside of a territory, control the political status of this territory, going against international law?

"Article 1 1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

What Spain is saying, and some Spanish people justifying, is that Catalonia doesn't have that right, and Catalans should never freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social and cultural development. Then reinforce that lack of freedom with charges of sedition if you try and charges of terrorism if you protest.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#385

Post by tbatchelli »

lentil_soup wrote: post #236
manuelflara wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What a tremendously uneducated comment. Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all. What an ironic couple of sentences tied together... In Spain we have rappers who have been sentenced to jail time for having lyrics criticizing the King. If that isn't limiting freedom of expression, I don't know what is. Reference: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/ocio-y-cultura/20180221/valto…

I think he's talking about the Github takedown notice, not about Spain in general

I believe the OP is talking about Spain in general when she/he writes "Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all.", wouldn't you agree?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#386

Post by tassl »

close04 wrote: post #355
vkou wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just how democracy works, else I can just secede if I don't like the result of the elections. What's wrong with self-determination?

You still do it within the context of existing laws. Democracies rely on leadership by majority so you have to operate within that system. If it worked the way you imply what would be the limit to what you can justify with “self determination”?

All independence movement start with laws that are not existing.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#387

Post by javierga »

yxhuvud wrote: post #252
mihemihe wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is simple majority enough to split a country, change the constitution, and change the citizenship of millions of citizens? Some people think it would require a qualified majority for such a change. How big? Maybe a 70%, and 80%? A referendum when we are in the 50%-50% is a dangerous proposition, and against the law, and definitely will make the things worse.

That is a very reasonable question, and Brexit is also relevant in that discussion. Perhaps it would be a good idea to require a qualified majority for cases like this.

Amendments and changes to the Spanish constitution require a qualified parliamentary majority.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#388

Post by AsyncAwait »

wang_li wrote: post #155
AsyncAwait wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OP is asking whether such countries, including the US, are indeed democratic, or just called that like Congo is called democratic, (not to the same degree obviously, but the same principle).

Can a country be called democratic if me and six friends are not allowed to draw a random border around a house and then vote to murder the residents with only our votes counting because only those inside the arbitrary border we drew are allowed to vote?

Ugh. By your logic once India was conquered by the British, all attempts at independence were six friends drawing a random border around their house.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#389

Post by tassl »

david-gpu wrote: post #259
droithomme wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving I wonder if the American colonies which seceded from Great Britain in 1776 received the agreement of King George or of the people of Great Britain in general. Secession without consent of the sovereign was not part of their law, so the action was clearly illegal and unethical and the colonists simply in the wrong, do you think? Also there is the matt…

The comparison is flawed because Catalonia, like all other regions of Spain, is represented in the Spanish parliament through a democratic election process. In contrast, the US was a colony of the UK with no direct representation. Also note how, just like in Spain, the US Constitution today does not allow for a state to secede, and in fact there was a civil war when some states tried to do just that. The potential in…

> The comparison is flawed because Catalonia, like all other regions of Spain, is represented in the Spanish parliament through a democratic election process.

That's irrelevant for minorities; it's the tyranny of the majority.

> Also note how, just like in Spain, the US Constitution today does not allow for a state to secede, and in fact there was a civil war when some states tried to do just that.

That's false.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#390

Post by vkou »

ErneX wrote: post #382
vkou wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You still do it within the context of existing laws. Existing laws may be undemocratic and unjust. If your bar for secession is legality, I will have to point out that the United States should still be part of the British Empire (The revolution was illegal), Hong Kong should pipe down, and stop protesting (They are bound by CPC laws, which have ruled the protests illegal), and most of Africa should still be governe…

Taxes are unjust, let's try not paying taxes and see how it goes.

You can stop paying taxes to the country you live in, when you leave it.
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