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The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

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Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Success is about the skills, contributions and value you bring to the table, not about how much you talk

This sounds naive. Most companies have some degree of 'politics' which is essentially people working in their own interests over the company's. This is somewhat unrelated to skills and value. Also particularly in large organisations, work is not a perfect information game - there is no easy way to assign a fair / public a "value" to people to let you compare two employees. Most people will need to sell themselves or…

> Most companies have some degree of 'politics' which is essentially people working in their own interests over the company's. This is somewhat unrelated to skills and value.

as someone else put it: there are sides in office politics, and by choosing not to play you are picking a side by default, which is often the losing side.

"you can't be neutral on a moving train"

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#372

I am an introvert not because I don’t like socializing with people, but rather because I can’t shake the impression that they don’t like socializing with me (and I have been proven right in this notion). In order to become more likable I’ve had to adopt an extremely perceptive and self critical mental framework to analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people. It has worked, and people seem to…

I try to just adopt the perspective that people like me, often more than they might even think they do.

It's not easy to do but when I do it, it makes it a lot easier for me to want to interact with them.

And if you want, ive built tools and tricks to help me with this that I could share.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#373
post #362

Being open with a select group of collaborators has gained me above average praise, promotions, etc. over the years. You don't need to be an extrovert to be an average or slightly above average engineer, you just have to pick your battles appropriately and understand the problems you are solving. OP is optimizing for a rat race that most people don't care about.

you don't have to play the game all of the time, just be social with the right people in the right places.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#374
post #98
post #18

Try framing it in terms of what you Need from people. Avoiding using "should" so much. It will help you become conscious of what your needs are. Confusing your needs with others needs is also a trap. We can only talk in terms of our Needs and why those needs are important to us. Anything else sounds like passing judgement and the reaction will be negative.

> Avoiding using "should" so much. I have two phrases I use often: "Should is not in my vocabulary" "Should is a lazy word" People use words like "should" and "must" to get around explaining their perspectives. I remember early in my career, I made a request for a feature to an employee in another team. Their SW was allowing users to specify parameters that made the whole model unphysical, and it was a burden on us u…

I am going to borrow that "should is a lazy word" slogan. Thanks!

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#375
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but the statement in question is (quote) "you can be EQUALLY successful as an introvert" - and we're talking about whether people should, generally, strive to be more extroverted at work. That there exists a successful introvert is not in question and isn't a good criticism of the article to me.

Equally to what? The maximum success of extroverts or the average or the mean? What exactly is meant by succesful? What's the measure?

Is it really not clear from context? "If introverts made an effort to be more extroverted, would it make them more successful?" Success I don't know what OP meant, but pay, seniority, I don't know that it changes the answer much.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#376
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slowness is a general problem with cars.

Yes, expecting your car to go at the speed of sound is as misplaced as expecting words to be accurate. Self-stab?

I mostly want useful. Accurate and supersonic would be great.

I've identified an issue with my car's starter and my mechanic, in his wisdom, tells me that cars in general do that sometimes. It's perhaps a cruel irony in a discussion about usefulness.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be a bit autistic, common enough in the software world. Lookup something called “autistic masking”. Source: All the autistic people in my life. I really like autistic people! Find your people and you won’t have to pretend around them.

Please don't try to diagnose people based on a couple paragraphs, on an internet forum, who didn't ask for a diagnosis in the first place.

I think it is meant empathically and non-judgmentally.

Depending on the person having it, autism isn't all bad, especially not high functioning autism. Some high functioning autistic people actually excel in society, but compared to other autistic people, they seem to be in the minority. The same seems true for high functioning ADHD (again a small minority).

So I don't really see the stigma when someone on HN is called autistic. Given that they are undiagnosed, the likelihood of them falling into the small minority is really high as their problems are mild enough (also, one could be subclinical). At the level of being high functioning, it simply suggests that they process things in a different way.

> In order to become more likable I’ve had to adopt an extremely perceptive and self critical mental framework to analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people. It has worked, and people seem to like me more, but the mental exhaustion it induces has led to me often yearning for alone time.

I get why he stated that he might be autistic. When I look at the autistic people I know that are socially well-liked, most of them would say a similar thing. The other route I know that some autistic people have taken is mindfulness meditation.

If OP is autistic, I personally would recommend mindfulness meditation as there's a chance his insula is smaller [1]. And mindfulness meditation targets it [2].

Background: did a bachelor in psychology, have studied it informally way before that and I happen to know many autistic people. It's a biased sample, but it paints a picture nonetheless. I'm subclinical myself, according to my therapist I don't hit all the criteria but I have some of them. The biggest one I'm missing is that my life actually goes quite well (friends, married, healthy, I have a job, etc.). If it didn't, there'd probably enough reason to classify me as autistic (e.g. no friends or severe difficulties in finding a partner).

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02785...

[2] There are scientific sources of it, but I find the comment that Cheetah House has made to be more insightful. They research the adverse side effects of meditation and help people with it.

They said: Britton explained to me that it’s likely that my meditation practice, specifically the constant attention directed toward the sensations of the body, may have increased the activation and size of a part of the brain called the insula cortex. “Activation of the insula cortex is related to systemic arousal,” she said. “If you keep amping up your body awareness, there is a point where it becomes too much and the body tries to limit excessive arousal by shutting down the limbic system. That’s why you have an oscillation between intense fear and dissociation.” - See also: https://danlawton.substack.com/p/when-buddhism-goes-bad

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#378
If I spend a lot of time socializing in a group of people I do not closely know, I will experience intense depression and loss of energy for about a day or so.

That's introversion.

I love being around people but it sucks the life out of me. I get energized through working on projects and reading. Inherently private pursuits.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#379

This author is deeply deeply misunderstanding other humans. They are applying a "it worked for me, therefore it works for all" mentality. And worse yet, coming to the wrong conclusions. You do not need to be an extrovert at work to get ahead. Full stop. Does it help in some ways? Sure, but you can be equally successful as an introvert as long as you are able to communicate clearly when needs demand it. Plenty of exce…

They are applying a "it worked for me, therefore it works for all" mentality.

And then you do the same thing in the next line...

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#380
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is constructive, basically people make it up and the "definitions" are none, they are actually after-the-fact formalizations. Whatever humans do to the word "Introvert" now will be its "definition" in 20 years. Print out some rainbow and ask people to draw the line between "red" and "not-red". That would prove that convergence didn't happen and would nicely show why it probably never will.

I would argue if you asked 100 random people to draw a red Vs not-red line in that experiment you described, short of colour blindness, you would not see very much variance in the position of the line. That is why I believe the terms have converged on a meaning. In fact, I think it would be very hard to construct an experiment where people did not use the term red in a consistent fashion. I agree with you that formal…

My impression was that the variance is high enough that i have to learn / swap new vocabulary with every new person in my social circles. I don't see the convergence you are talking of.
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