Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my country we raise our hand to say "thank you", but I also do this to say "I 'm sorry" when there is no other safe way to communicate.
That's neat. What country is that?
Greece :)
So you've made a mistake and it's public
371–380 of 403 posts
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#372I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all. For example. Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the…
> Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands "widely known" You're interpreting your ideological position as normative and factual.
Please refer to my response at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25087153
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#373Earlier quoted context omitted.
Something important about that situation is the power dynamic. You were not in a position of power, your boss was, and you were looking to defuse the situation and take ownership of a mistake. Your point is correct - there was a systematic failure at multiple levels of the operation that led to this being possible and even likely (too many hours, bad practices). In such a situation, multiple mistakes were made. If th…
If your primary goal is to minimize the damage of your mistake to maximize your political gains, then yes, you're right. When dealing with actual, non-hypothetical humans, you should be able to set your ego aside to meet them on a human level and address them as such. Too many in this thread fear of being perceived as weak, but I find that being an unapologetic asshole is just as bad.
The problem is that some people will perceive you as weak when you admit having made a mistake, and will exploit that weakness, if only to throw cheap shots when given the chance. It creates a real incentive not to disclose mistakes in the first place.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
The "progressives" you're referring to aren't progressive. They're reactionary authoritarians, hijacking the ideals and preferences of whatever group they're attached to. You can find them in all forms of debased public discourse and lowbrow populism, with a history going back millennia, and uniformly distributed across the political spectrum. No-one called the Spanish Inquisition progressive. I hold a very special l…
Tomato tomato. The members of the inquisition called themselves the inquisition, so we call them the inquisition. Today's progressives call themselves progressives so we call them progressives.
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Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#375In the age of social media I would suggest a different approach to addressing public mistakes. 1. Go silent. > Complete public blackout. No denying, no accepting. The people want retribution, not justice. The media blackout is essential. 2. Reflect on it privately and quietly. 3. If not in violation of #1, apologize to the individual people/entity affected in private. 4. Once the mob dissipates, address the issue pub…
Wikimedia is probably insulated in enough of its own groupthink to get away with their list. In the cannibal crab bucket of the real world, this list is way more practical. > people want retribution, not justice This. People desperately want to feel like they championed a cause, and the cheapest way to get that kick is by demanding your head on a platter on Twitter.
> People desperately want to feel like they championed a cause, and the cheapest way to get that kick is by demanding your head on a platter on Twitter.
Some people I had the displeasure of interacting with suddenly feel more ordinary. Thank you.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#376Earlier quoted context omitted.
The "progressives" you're referring to aren't progressive. They're reactionary authoritarians, hijacking the ideals and preferences of whatever group they're attached to. You can find them in all forms of debased public discourse and lowbrow populism, with a history going back millennia, and uniformly distributed across the political spectrum. No-one called the Spanish Inquisition progressive. I hold a very special l…
Tomato tomato. The members of the inquisition called themselves the inquisition, so we call them the inquisition. Today's progressives call themselves progressives so we call them progressives.
[deleted]
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
You will look bad even if you admit the mistake. But admitting to a mistake is good – assuming people already know about the mistake, it's good press to do so. (Especially if you're revealing the mistake to them, when they haven't already seen the mistake; if half of your mistakes are “oh, I messed up”, versus the same number of mistakes but they come out in newspapers first… which is going to look better for you?
> > But admitting to a mistake is good > Yes - if that is what you care about. But from what I see not so many people in the world care about "good". They just "want more". For example, when a customer reports a problem, and I admit that there is a bug and explain a workaround some of them will say: "you have buggy software, bla bla I will use Google". But if you say: "Strange. This might some very strange setup issu…
That's because you can successfully deceive people as to whether you made a mistake.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#378“I neglected to look at relevant data before deciding to fund Wikimedia Antarctica”
This seems unreasonably sane, compared to actual real-life investors.
I think it would be a lot more impactful with a mistake that wasn’t endemic to the relevant profession.
How about: “I failed to realize that economics is a social science, and treated it as a field of mathematics”..?
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#379Earlier quoted context omitted.
To preface, we're talking about people with jackasses-tendencies here. Normal, well-adjusted people don't like to make their colleagues feel bad. But as you say, it's also been my experience that apology and... "ownership"(?) are two very different things in American (Southern) culture. "I'm sorry I did X" seems to signal weakness and invite criticism, if people are already so inclined. "I did X. It wasn't the best a…
This is a very important distinction. "I did X" isn't seen often enough, in individuals and companies. Part of it is a perception that it invites litigation. I hate how it's rare to hear a company (or person) admit they made a mistake, or didn't take the best path. Not doing this makes even well-intentioned organizations and people feel slimy and dishonest to me. I'm evidently in the minority.
My last employer (t50 retailer, oddly enough) was one of the first I've worked at that had a top to bottom culture encouraging that.
I think the biggest enabler was the response.
If someone said "I made a mistake and did X", the response was invariably "What are we going to do about it now?" or "How can we avoid doing it again?"
I guess part of it was a strong company identity and shared ownership. So it wasn't so much "You admitted a mistake" rather than "You admitted a mistake we all made (through you)".
It was weird, but I don't think I saw people get jumped on for admitting mistakes my entire time there.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#380Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gospel of Matthew, chapter 18: If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat…
Wow, guess he really didn't like tax collectors.
Matthew was a publican/tax collector, so perhaps that was written from experience.