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So you've made a mistake and it's public

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Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#331

Post by dingoegret »

underdeserver wrote: post #264
DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

Apologies are complex things. If you dole them out like candy they lose their power, and since an apology's power comes from your dignity, it follows that you lose your dignity. So when do you apologize? An apology is great when you've hurt someone by making a mistake - which I would define as something you wouldn't do knowing how it would turn out. You've made a deliberate decision that in hindsight was an error of…

This is the best advice. Your description is also very good. An apology is you offering something (like dignity or a moment of weakness). But too often, people treat apologies as something you use to make a transaction where you're excused for your behavior by performing the ritual.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#332

Post by the__alchemist »

ethbr0 wrote: post #187
DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

To preface, we're talking about people with jackasses-tendencies here. Normal, well-adjusted people don't like to make their colleagues feel bad. But as you say, it's also been my experience that apology and... "ownership"(?) are two very different things in American (Southern) culture. "I'm sorry I did X" seems to signal weakness and invite criticism, if people are already so inclined. "I did X. It wasn't the best a…

This is a very important distinction. "I did X" isn't seen often enough, in individuals and companies. Part of it is a perception that it invites litigation. I hate how it's rare to hear a company (or person) admit they made a mistake, or didn't take the best path.

Not doing this makes even well-intentioned organizations and people feel slimy and dishonest to me. I'm evidently in the minority.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#333

Post by techer »

auggierose wrote: post #279
api_or_ipa wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian in a happy relationship with an American, we quickly realised the difference that you've pointed out. We also realised that I had a tinge of the stereotypical Canadian "sooorry" sound, so we ran with it. If it's a situation where one of us intends to express remorse for a situation occurring, we slightly intonate towards the "o" sound, and for situations where we're accepting blame, we edge towards the…

In the UK you say sorry all the time. You usually don't mean it.

This is apparently called the “Sorry reflex”. I’ve recently learned that “sorry!” in London at least, can mean - “fuck off/you”. I would say sorry to someone bumping into me and not realise why but now I understand why.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#334

Post by d2v »

smsm42 wrote: post #196
jmartrican wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Apologizing may keep the mob size small and insignificant.

Did it ever happen? Did anybody actually get out of being cancelled by mobs by apologizing?

Dan Harmon

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/674/transcript

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#335

Post by will4274 »

inopinatus wrote: post #163
textgel wrote: post #127

I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all. For example. Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the…

The "progressives" you're referring to aren't progressive. They're reactionary authoritarians, hijacking the ideals and preferences of whatever group they're attached to. You can find them in all forms of debased public discourse and lowbrow populism, with a history going back millennia, and uniformly distributed across the political spectrum. No-one called the Spanish Inquisition progressive. I hold a very special l…

Tomato tomato. The members of the inquisition called themselves the inquisition, so we call them the inquisition. Today's progressives call themselves progressives so we call them progressives.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#336

Post by techer »

techer wrote: post #333
auggierose wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK you say sorry all the time. You usually don't mean it.

This is apparently called the “Sorry reflex”. I’ve recently learned that “sorry!” in London at least, can mean - “fuck off/you”. I would say sorry to someone bumping into me and not realise why but now I understand why.

>> A recent survey of more than 1,000 Brits found that that the average person says ‘sorry’ around eight times per day – and that one in eight people apologise up to 20 times a day.

“The readiness of the English to apologise for something they haven’t done is remarkable, and it is matched by an unwillingness to apologise for what they have done,” wrote Henry Hitchings in his aptly-titled Sorry!: The English and their Manners.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#337

Post by legends2k »

It's sad to see such write ups since it's these that give people who don't mean the apology look like they do since they follow this template/algorithm.

Let it be original when you apologize, let it come from you with all your perfections and imperfections. Let the world come to term with the real you and your explanation on _your actions_.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#338

Post by jackcosgrove »

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #191
Swizec wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope for a new wave of optimistic idealism to swallow up tech again, bringing about a new era of amateurism. But with the professionalisation of even the free software community I have, I must admit, all but given up hope. This wave exists, we’re just old. Go talk to 16 year olds who are building virtual reality machine learning apps in their bedroom. Web is no longer the frontier. We’re old and out of touch. The…

You're probably right. I've been reading HN for 10+ years now and just assume it's still the best location for hackers. So what's the newer, cooler, current version of what HN was in 2010?

I've heard the community at Indie Hackers is more supportive and less jaded.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#339

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

smsm42 wrote: post #281
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of apologising isn't to avoid consequences. It's intended to mitigate three sorts of damages: that inflicted on whoever suffered because of you, the damage society experiences any time its rules are broken, and the damage you have done to yourself by breaking some moral standard you believe in. To that end, an apology that allows s/o to "get out" as in "saw no further consequences" isn't necessarily what's…

> As to "getting out" of "being cancelled" by "mobs" I wouldn't know since I already have trouble identifying what that's supposed to mean. I have a strong suspicion that you know what I mean, you just don't want to recognize that. If you indeed know nothing about cancel culture, I envy whatever bubble you reside in, and I wish I could organize my life to never encounter it too, however it is not so for me. If you pr…

Oh, your first hunch was correct. I sort-of know that it means the phenomenon where Harvey Weinstein rapes a dozen women and everybody on the internet pretends that's the reason they don't want to have women on their team. Because apparently "showing up at their colleagues' hotel room doors, naked and at night" is somehow just bound to happen in the course of standard operating procedures.

Also the related phenomenon where people walk through cities being casually and formally anti-semitic, deliberately crashing cars into groups of people, but call the other side "mob", because they complain about that on Twitter.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#340

Post by jackcosgrove »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #73
willeh wrote: post #14

This is purely my personal opinion, but the wikipedia community seems like one of the most toxic communities on the web. The people contributing to WP - the editors - seem more concerned with coming up with Kafka-esque processes to introduce to the community than making the actual work of making an encyclopaedia. Perhaps the only area where editors are as zealous they are about creating obscure processes, is in polic…

> The people contributing to WP - the editors - seem more concerned with coming up with Kafka-esque processes to introduce to the community than making the actual work of making an encyclopaedia This is one of the biggest challenges with building a self-governing online community: The people with the most time, energy, and desire to be in charge are often not the people with the most to contribute. As the bureaucracy…

Sure that's the case with any bureaucracy.

When Wikipedia came out I was hopeful that the governance model enabled by the web would be able to solve some of those age-old problems.

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