How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry • Hacker News Board

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#371

Post by jrumbut » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 8:43 PM UTC

skitout wrote: post #331

mcv wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the weird thing. Americans love to complain about how stupid their unions are, and according to some anecdotes, some American unions are indeed pretty stupid. But these are the unions created by Americans. I don't quite understand the underlying cultural issue that leads Americans to create unions they hate. It's got to be something cultural. Or is it something in US law? It seems so easy to fix, but somehow…

I don't know USA very well, so that is just a feeling. - a lot of what the union do/did have to be understand in the context of important fight between the unionized worker and the companies that want to undercut union influence (and often undercut workers right) - a lot of thing union do / used to do, make sense in the past, but are less relevant now. - Human is quite good to do stupid things, to create some bureauc…

Who said you didn't know us very well? I think you summed it up well.

I would also mention goals.

If your goal is absolute efficiency in running a convention then you end up with poorly treated and underpaid workers.

If your goal is making sure the convention doesn't poorly treat or underpay workers, you end up having to find someone to plug in your equipment (also I suspect there are legitimate safety and security concerns for a prototype electronics conference).

You can't blame convention workers for preferring the latter situation.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#372

Post by MrDresden » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

greggman3 wrote: post #243

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

I can not speak about how unions work in the US.

I have however been in unions my whole working life, and know of none who is a saleried employee who is not in a union, and what you describe is not how my experience of unions in Europe has ever been (nor have I ever heard such stories).

There are not, nor have there ever been any restrictions placed on how, where and when I can work due to unions. Any modifications triggered by how, when and where I was working are beneficial to me and soley the burden of my employeers.

The way unions have been warped in the US, either in reality or in the minds of people, truly horrifies me.

/edit: spelling

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#373

Post by sebmellen » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

pietrovismara wrote: post #296

sebmellen wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fantastic video. I'm commenting mostly to save the link for later, but I cannot imagine unions trying to mesh with the tech world. Can you imagine having a "frontend developers union" which disallowed backend work (or vice versa)? What a nightmare.

That's not how unions work at all and especially not the union described by OP's article. Can you imagine strongly opposing something that would benefit you, because you don't understand it nor take the time to?

I've only been exposed to unions through conferences, so I may not be completely informed, but this is the only way I know unions to work (also from my grandmother having been a teacher in NY, and strong union advocate).

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#374

Post by MrDresden » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 10:22 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #281

skitout wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there are some horror stories about unions, but you are just generalizing. And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. Having an organization that can help a worker that is abused, or giving more bargaining power to workers seems clearly positive for the worker. That could be a bit more irritating for the top management ... But the German exampl…

> but you are just generalizing No he's not. Every unionized workplace I have been in from educational institutions to government departments to defense contractors is like this to a pretty large extent. >But the German example Yes, I know that European unions are different and not nearly as asinine as American ones but I have yet to hear anyone say that tech will get European style unions let alone a good argument f…

"Basically American unions suck which is why American workers in well compensated industries don't want them."

A EU unionized tech worker here who has union negotiated minimum salery and benefits and am fully able to negotiate for more (which I do each year). And I am not far from the 6 figure mark (in $).

So there is nothing saying that unions will mess with your bottom line.

Just don't create unions that suck.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Post by dudul » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:47 AM UTC

bsenftner wrote: post #307

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but you are just generalizing No he's not. Every unionized workplace I have been in from educational institutions to government departments to defense contractors is like this to a pretty large extent. >But the German example Yes, I know that European unions are different and not nearly as asinine as American ones but I have yet to hear anyone say that tech will get European style unions let alone a good argument f…

American style capitalism has polluted the mental models of anyone raised in the States to disregard European management styles and by extension the successful European work life balance, to the US citizens' significant determent. The work-life balance in Europe is more of a life worth living, while the life styles in the United States require double incomes to participate, are so heavily marketed it rendered everyth…

Double income is pretty much a requirement everywhere in Europe.

Some things are more expensive in the US, like cars. Some are more expensive in Europe, like food and gas.

There are great communities in the US. Dont generalize a country of 360M people on your personal situation.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#376

Post by friendlybus » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 10:46 AM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #199

friendlybus wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is dismissing anybody/somebody/everybodies' view out of hand or minimizing it down to complaints means you are missing when valid points are being made. You are not showing a desire to discuss specific, measurable, realistic and timely issues. You and most unionists here have a view of a utopian union that is above criticism and does not need examination. Which supports my view that this is about feelings a…

> The point is dismissing anybody/somebody/everybodies' view out of hand or minimizing it down to complaints means you are missing when valid points are being made. I'm not "dismissing anybody/somebody/everybodies' view out of hand," but observing that you can't make everyone happy all the time. Bosses will be unhappy with unions, because oftentimes unions go against their interests and reduce the power differential…

A power imbalance isn't a problem to be solved defacto. We're not stalin-esque egalitarians.

What would you want power for. What problem are you trying to solve. If you say individual vs collective, institute or corp for a third time without introducing an issue to be tackled, there is nothing to talk about.

Attribute the desires to anything other than power and the jealousy tag falls away.

Corporations did not start as they are, they were tiny teams of people off to do one task. How can I say any different about the implications of a new org structure like unions.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#377

Post by Apocryphon » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

ivojp wrote: post #366

Apocryphon wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because management isn't always what it's cracked up to be, and it would be a nice recourse for workers to have some leverage to push back against questionable business decisions. Have you ever worked somewhere where mgmt. overruled engineering concerns with disastrous consequences? [0] Perhaps workplace democracy is too radical, perhaps a workers' union won't make the right business decisions that management can- or…

I won't contest that history is not replete with examples of management failing to listen to warnings from their employees, but the leadership model most places employ is effective because history is also replete with management staying the course even when under doubt and achieving some measure of success. Also, if the consequences to decisions were always attainable a priori, I doubt management would make bad decis…

The way I see it, tech as exemplified by Silicon Valley has an unique culture that portrays itself as cutting-edge, on the side of progress (not politically, though there is that too), open to experimentation, and empowering. At least, that's how the rhetoric is shaped.

And yet, despite startups' attempts to introduce concepts such as transparency, "radical candor", "employee wellness", even radical experiments like holacracy, etc., at the end of the day the core of these businesses are the same old corporate structures.

And amidst the high-paced, high-stakes froth of move fast and fueled by the promise of dumb money, many firms end up having mgmt. that shall we say, are more susceptible to mistakes, and persist in them despite discontent from the rank and file. And despite performative attempts to promote open discourse and welcome questions, they often don't listen to that discontent. So those truly unhappy just jump ship. Which is fine to some extent, but it just feels like it's contributing to an unsustainable throwaway culture.

> After that, you've exhausted your options at that company and aren't owed anything further.

> I may be more cavalier with my "if you don't like it, then leave" attitude.

But what about the end user? The customers who will be failed if the company does? And what about the product itself? If someone who works on it feels like company leadership isn't making the right choices, and if their concerns are echoed by a good amount of the workforce, shouldn't they at least be given the chance to appeal to the board?

It just feels highly hypocritical that an industry that sees itself as so forward-looking and enlightened, so flexible and boundaries breaking, just ends up conforming to the same corporate fiat structure at the end. It really belies the messaging of being able to "make a difference."

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#378

Post by naveen99 » Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

jondubois wrote: post #306

naveen99 wrote: post #303

Funny thing about unions is that they are common when the employer is the state: police, teachers etc. so you have a union which is formed to represent employee rights against a bigger union of the people which includes the same employees as citizens.

I think unions make sense for any organization that has a or near-monopoly. I'm surprised that they are not more common among big tech corporations.

Some unions get pretty big and have a monopoly on what they do. At what point do the union member organize another union against the union leadership ? My point is the government is such a union.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#379

Post by darkwizard42 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 12:21 AM UTC

bigbubba wrote: post #45

darkwizard42 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech is often more of a meritocracy than other fields/industries. It is quite possible for a talented engineer to rise quickly out of university but nearly impossible for a talented surgeon or industrial engineer without a decade+ of effort.

The tech industry has a bias for youth, which is mutually exclusive with experience. I don't know much about the medical industry, but I wager surgeons face less ageism once the gray hairs start coming in. With that age comes experience younger surgeons simply couldn't have. Maybe that makes them better surgeons, or maybe not. But it seems to me that ageism in tech complicates comparisons to fields which value experi…

My point was that the OPPOSITE is true in most other fields.

If you don't have grey hairs, you simply are not considered for the top jobs at all in certain industries. YOE (years of experience) is nearly everything for some professions, tech is surprisingly quite robust in that regard.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#380

Post by twblalock » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 7:21 AM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #127

dorkinspace wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord. I have had this happen in…

>> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? > Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord. While the anecdote is t…

> If tech workers would chafe at rigid role definitions, a tech worker's union that they control would not impose them.

Name a union, any union, that does not impose rigid role definitions.

The fact is, there aren't any. Their entire purpose is to categorize employees into roles as a basis for bargaining. If every worker was unique, then collective bargaining would be impossible. The entire point is to group people together and bargain for the rights of that group, and to sign up every member of that group to the deal that was obtained.