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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#41

Post by [deleted] »

dorkinspace wrote: post #30
matsemann wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored? My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well. But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance th…

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord. I have had this happen in…

[deleted]

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#42

Post by rriepe »

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

People who want money are opposed to unions. The people who want power sorely want unions.

Kickstarter and now Spotify have both been about editorial control. Not hours. Not wages. Not roles.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#44

Post by abeppu »

dpc_pw wrote: post #27
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders. What's good for shareholders is also good for a lot of tech employees.

I am skeptical about this. At public companies, it seems like in general shareholders do an ineffective job at reigning in management. See e.g. all the discussions around executive pay, as well as the proportion of shares that are held through passive funds.

Within tech in some cases (e.g. FB) extra means were taken so that shareholders have even less control than is typical.

Within private companies, employees with vested options typically have far less visibility into company finances than do the VCs, and certainly don't have a board seat or the ability to vote. I.e. being an employee shareholder at a startup often gives you no ability to see whether management is actually working in your interest, and certainly no special input into corporate governance.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#45

Post by bigbubba »

darkwizard42 wrote: post #18
door99 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech. Tech is absolutely not a meritocracy.

Tech is often more of a meritocracy than other fields/industries. It is quite possible for a talented engineer to rise quickly out of university but nearly impossible for a talented surgeon or industrial engineer without a decade+ of effort.

The tech industry has a bias for youth, which is mutually exclusive with experience. I don't know much about the medical industry, but I wager surgeons face less ageism once the gray hairs start coming in. With that age comes experience younger surgeons simply couldn't have.

Maybe that makes them better surgeons, or maybe not. But it seems to me that ageism in tech complicates comparisons to fields which value experience instead of youth.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#46

Post by andy99 »

moocowtruck wrote: post #25
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

I've been working with a tech union for 15 years, and it's been horrible. I could sit here for hours listing out all the ridiculousness...but a small taste, grievance for being woken up from slumber too abruptly. Whats that? I'm playing star ocean and I cant talk right now middle of boss fightz. How do public companies deal with unions when the workforce gets to where it no longer really needs to accomplish things? M…

> How do public companies deal with unions when the workforce gets to where it no longer really needs to accomplish things?

Ask the manufacturing sector

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#47

Post by triceratops »

dpc_pw wrote: post #27
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> If you can't get someone to treat you well, you can have your own software company paying your bills in 6 months, or VCs funding your startup.

What?

If that actually describes you, then yeah a union membership isn't for you. For the rest of us, this doesn't really apply though...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#48

Post by kingbirdy »

sanxiyn wrote: post #38
dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power > I would rather see more laws universally protecting intellectual workers like e.g. non-enforcability of non-compete clauses and alikes One of this must be incorrect. If tech workers have good negotiating power, they should be able to get rid of non-compete clauses. If they can't, see, that's what union can do (a…

Tech workers are a subset of intellectual workers. Just because tech workers don't need those protections in GP's view doesn't mean other workers wouldn't benefit from them.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#49

Post by yibg »

matsemann wrote: post #13
gedy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored? My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well. But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance th…

Can't speak for all unions but my experience with a couple of unions has been like this. One place had a rule where you (the engineer) can only have 1 CAD drawing request out to the CAD department at a time. And of course the CAD department was backlogged. So in practice it means you're sitting around waiting for the draft to come back for 4 - 6 weeks doing practically nothing.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#50

Post by ry454 »

andlarry wrote: post #29
ry454 wrote: post #19

So how does it work for them? What's the typical pay rate in Kickstarter?

It seemed to help with severance when they got rid of 40% of their staff a few months after the union was formed [0]. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21257585/kickstarter-layo...

How much was that severance exactly?
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