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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#371

Post by phkahler »

asdfman123 wrote: post #135
C4stor wrote: post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

>> In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself.

This may seems strange from where you sit but trust me. If you stay in the field that length of time, you will probably become that guy. You don't need to set out to be him. The only thing it requires is time and a refusal to stagnate.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#372

Post by tcbawo »

godelski wrote: post #282
asdfman123 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

The guitar playing is a good analogy here. Say you've played classical for years and dabbled in rock and some jazz. Like any musician you've played around a little but probably focus on one style. You're best friend asks you to play flemanco for them at their wedding. Sure, you won't be as good as someone that's played flemanco all their life. But if flemanco was invented 5 years ago you're sure going to pick it up f…

I like this analogy for a separate reason. Many musicians can relate to hitting a ceiling in terms of ability. You might have X years playing any instrument, but depending on talent, you may have plateaued for some period of time. It is highly likely for anyone that has stayed in one role (in a mature industry) that has not actively sought extra-curricular technology to experience this.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#373

Post by cwmoore »

samsonradu wrote: post #239
celticmusic wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. I recently started working on a project in which the company had outsourced it to a wordpress shop, despite it not being a wordpress site. fast forward a few years and no one fully trusts the software so everything it does gets checked/verified by a human, and they're actually hiring people because the workload is too much. So they brought it in-house, which is where I come in. And let me tell you,…

Ah, speaking of code snippet of the day. Found someone’s code trying to check if a promo-code is already used, and if not to apply it: $codes = $db->exec(‘SELECT code from promocode’); if (!in_array($myCode, $codes)){ // use it }

!!

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#374

Post by jm__87 »

sbov wrote: post #237
asdfman123 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

Also, most languages are not sinking ships. Certain uses of them are of course. But even languages this site hates, such as C, C++, C#, and Java have very long lives ahead of them for certain uses. Obviously C++ vs Rails... well, you're going to be out of a job. But if you were using C++ for the sorts of things you would have used Rails in 2009 you were already a decade or so behind the curve.

> But even languages this site hates, such as C, C++, C#, and Java

What makes you think this? I have been on here for years and have never really got this impression.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#375

Post by tcbawo »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #356
godelski wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guitar playing is a good analogy here. Say you've played classical for years and dabbled in rock and some jazz. Like any musician you've played around a little but probably focus on one style. You're best friend asks you to play flemanco for them at their wedding. Sure, you won't be as good as someone that's played flemanco all their life. But if flemanco was invented 5 years ago you're sure going to pick it up f…

>No matter the language you use, there are common patterns. Someone who has been programming for years generally picks up a new language quickly (because of this). So should a programmer with 30 years of experience in C and 1 year in rust be paid more than the programmer with 5 years of rust experience? Absolutely. Those 30 years they were learning to program, to debug, to solve problems. The skills translate. Tell t…

I don't think many employers are interested in training anyone at any age anymore. Margins are often too lean to dedicate productive resources to training. When switching jobs, I always emphasize the aspects of previous jobs and accomplishments that would be most relevant to the employer (eg, delivering on time, under budget, reduction in reported defects). Having projects in GitHub or a portfolio also speaks volumes.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#376

Post by Franciscouzo »

mr_overalls wrote: post #176
asdfman123 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

> every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable To be fair, this observation could be massively influenced by survivorship bias - more talented devs tend to be the ones still programming in older age.

To go with the guitar playing analogy, there's plenty of people that have played the guitar for 20 years and always play the same 4 chords.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#377

Post by wrs »

scarface74 wrote: post #319
wrs wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, sure, percentage-wise you learn less in year 20 than in year 10, because you already know a lot more in year 19. But that is no more true of this field than any other field. Is a doctor, architect, civil engineer, or auto mechanic with 20 years experience more valuable than one with 10 years experience? Heck yes.

20 years ago,much of what I used today didn't existed there was no AWS, no C# (but C++ was close enough I guess), mobile where you had to worry about semi-connected networks and syncing, etc. There is no part of the human body that exists today that didn't exist 20 years ago.

All of which is just details, which are much less important than the fundamental skills of building systems with whatever people and tools are available. (And I'm sorry, are you implying no significant changes have occurred in the tools and practice of medicine in 20 years?)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#378

Post by wolfspider »

Well I’m already a few years into my plan B which became working for gov. This article assumes that government tech is static but it is changing rather quickly. I’m knocking on the door of 40 and regarded as one of the younger leads. My commute is a 6 minute walk home and the high quality projects sometimes get scheduled out for completion in between 3-6 months or even a year if it’s a big one. Medical care and family time for all devs is a huge priority for management. Lots of vacation time, amazing benefits, and employer matched savings (or pension if you go that route). I’ve worked for a startup before and for a big corp as well but feel more secure now. Also, there is a tech allowance fund for equipment for home use and if you want to take classes part time they pay for some of the tuition. They pay for training and events (room and board, food, transportation). I’ve nearly doubled my salary since I started. I also get to mentor recent grads at times one of whom just got a position with Mozilla. So there ya go- with all the negativity this topic invokes there CAN be a silver lining (just like silver hairs beginning to appear on my head). For the younger devs: whenever you get tired of the ‘culture fit’ shenanigans or feel like you are more playing a role like an actor than solving real problems you may find yourself in my shoes. Whenever you get tired of practically living with ‘the team’ knowing that your reward for good work is even more caffeine you may find yourself wanting to get off the tilt-a-whirl just like I did. That day may come where you actually want to have your own uninterrupted thoughts as you work— then it’s time for Plan B.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#379

Post by iguessthislldo »

beat wrote: post #265
blackflame7000 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably not by coincidence. The cost required to fix a hardware/firmware defect vs a software defect is much more. I'd definitely want to put my best engineers on the product that can't be easily fixed once it's shipped vs software than can always be patched. > I'm 67 and have been programming for 50 years. Also, that's really impressive. You've probably forgotten more than I've ever learned!

Personally, I find it slightly weird that I've been in the industry longer than some of my co-workers have been alive.

Related experience in the opposite direction: I'm a relatively new software engineer that works on a 13 year old product. It's fun to see a particular commit and think about what I was doing in middle school, high school, or college at the time it was committed.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#380

Post by tcbawo »

beat wrote: post #261
awakeasleep wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you miss the point about 'shelf life' The shelf life is due to a business decision, where the knowledge the older person has is deemed insufficient to justify the compensation they've grown used to. Sure, you love working with them and it's better for engineering, but the business wants college grads they can pay less, even if they don't do the same quality work. Importantly, this doesn't have to be logical o…

It's not just quality, it's capability. As I'm fond of saying, I may cost twice as much as an entry level engineer, but I can do things that two entry level engineers can't do.

This may be true, but your company always wants the most business value, not the best/most elegant/most maintainable code. If you can deliver your boss's business interests at even 1.5x, I think you will have a long career.
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