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Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

bbc.com

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Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#361

Post by monerozcash »

lenkite wrote: post #356
lenkite wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Credible source? Someone who doesn't have a documented track record of repeatedly reporting false rumors as facts would be a nice start. That depends on what you personally take as rumors vs facts. No doubt you would take all Indian/Russian media reporting the S-400 used in drone slaying as rumors. If you wish actual video evidence, it is extremely difficult as obviously the S-400 was only one component of an air d…

(delayed due to rate limit) > But you're shifting the goalposts again.. Not really - S-400 efficacy in Operation Sindoor was in my original post too. You questioned that and hence the digression. Your goalposts changed into other utterly unrelated statements made by analysts you don't believe and media you don't believe. (I did not respond to those, because it would completely sidetrack the topic and anyways one of y…

I don't doubt for a second that the S-400 has been used to shoot down some drones. The idea that it would be used to shoot down thousands of drones as you originally claimed is preposterous to anyone familiar with the S-400 system, that's simply not it's purpose.

The question is not whether or not the S-400 is capable of doing that, of course it is. It's not going to be very good at it, but if someone was willing to waste absurd amounts of money by using the wrong equipment they could certainly reach numbers like that.

Russia isn't stupid, they're not using the S-400 to shoot down thousands of drones. They have equipment better suited for that purpose. Russia does not currently, and will likely never have sufficient numbers of S-400 interceptors to routinely intercept cheap little drones with them.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#362

Post by lm28469 »

m000 wrote: post #23
bethekidyouwant wrote: post #2

“The change means that all 18-year-olds in Germany will be sent a questionnaire from January 2026 asking if they are interested and willing to join the armed forces. The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women.“ - all men have to fill out and return a form, I suppose this will work to increase recruitment. Doesn’t seem very controversial.

The problem here that this probably is only part of a larger society militarization plan. The guaranteed next step is to offer the volunteers a long term paid contract at the end of their term. This would probably be well above what they would be paid elsewhere (young men with no university degree, desperate enough to volunteer in the first place). Run the scheme for a few years, and you will have a large number of,…

Is it worse than a metaphorical army of uneducated and underpaid youth that are still dependant on the state?

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#363

Post by lm28469 »

sunshine-o wrote: post #69

This got to be the final scream of a dying regime. Not so long ago we were told a serious army has now to be a professional and highly trained army. Everything else was useless. But they seem to plan to just draft young people and fight some sort WWI a bit like the nightmare in Ukraine. But today Western Europe countries are not Ukraine. If they would engage in a war they would collapse into total chaos very quickly.…

The alternative of doing nothing, pretending the world is the same as 15 years ago and praying for world peace doesn't seem like a better idea.

If anything military service should have been kept everywhere in europe. Not for war, but for national cohesion, for some people it was the only time they'd get out of their little social bubble and stereotypes.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#364

Post by lenkite »

monerozcash wrote: post #361
lenkite wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(delayed due to rate limit) > But you're shifting the goalposts again.. Not really - S-400 efficacy in Operation Sindoor was in my original post too. You questioned that and hence the digression. Your goalposts changed into other utterly unrelated statements made by analysts you don't believe and media you don't believe. (I did not respond to those, because it would completely sidetrack the topic and anyways one of y…

I don't doubt for a second that the S-400 has been used to shoot down some drones. The idea that it would be used to shoot down thousands of drones as you originally claimed is preposterous to anyone familiar with the S-400 system, that's simply not it's purpose. The question is not whether or not the S-400 is capable of doing that, of course it is. It's not going to be very good at it, but if someone was willing to…

> but if someone was willing to waste absurd amounts of money by using the wrong equipment they could certainly reach numbers like that.

This depends on the missile being used. 9M96E/E2 are the high-maneuvering ones used to shoot down UAV's which have ranges of upto 40/120 km. Multiple 9M96 missiles can be carried per launcher container, making them more far more compact with operational efficiency.

You are right that you wouldn't use this against a basic "quadcopter" drone as it is still too expensive, but Ukraine does indeed have far more sophisticated, speedy/evasive "strategic" drones. They are the undisputed world-leader in drone warfare. Many times the Russians have no choice.

All of the layered Russian air defenses shooting down Ukrainian drone swarms do mention the S-400, but unfortunately they don't give exact target count to each system, so it is difficult to correlate numbers.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#365

Post by ekianjo »

lawn wrote: post #162
ekianjo wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you'd rather read Russian propaganda? Propaganda happens on both sides during a war. You just need to be aware of it.

These arguments always try to imply that both sides are equally bad, which is not the case (by far).

> These arguments always try to imply that both sides are equally bad, which is not the case (by far).

You have actually no way of knowing the truth

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#366

Post by belorn »

fkdk wrote: post #232
jiwidi wrote: post #148

suddenly when war comes is only mandatory for man

Including women would have been a legal nonstarter. The german constitution restricts drafting to men[0] and would have to be changed before such a law could even be considered. Before you ask, yes, the constitution also says that men and women need to be treated equally[1] [0] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_12a.html [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_3.html

The way to solve that is to introduce a different form of service to the state along side with military service so that the choice in practice become the same.

Is there anything in the constitution that forbids the government from requiring citizens to perform some kind of service to the government?

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#367

Post by monerozcash »

lenkite wrote: post #364
monerozcash wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt for a second that the S-400 has been used to shoot down some drones. The idea that it would be used to shoot down thousands of drones as you originally claimed is preposterous to anyone familiar with the S-400 system, that's simply not it's purpose. The question is not whether or not the S-400 is capable of doing that, of course it is. It's not going to be very good at it, but if someone was willing to…

> but if someone was willing to waste absurd amounts of money by using the wrong equipment they could certainly reach numbers like that. This depends on the missile being used. 9M96E/E2 are the high-maneuvering ones used to shoot down UAV's which have ranges of upto 40/120 km. Multiple 9M96 missiles can be carried per launcher container, making them more far more compact with operational efficiency. You are right tha…

The S-400 isn't even really capable of shooting down the basic "quadcopter" drones, they're too small and fly far too low. You'd have to be extraordinarily lucky to be able to hit one.

I'm talking about Ukrainian shahed-equivalents here.

9M96E/E2 can be used to shoot down shahed-like UAVs, but it's not something you'd generally want to do. They don't exist in sufficient numbers and are far better suited for shooting down missiles. It's something you'd do as a last resort, when necessary. Not something you'd do to shoot down thousands of drones.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#368

Post by thomassmith65 »

derelicta wrote: post #348
OKRainbowKid wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia invading Europe would be America's war?

Yes. After all, Europe is under NATO occupation, the same NATO whose leader is no one than America.

Nobody would take seriously the characterization of Europe being under a NATO 'occupation'.

That said, for the first half of my life, much of Europe was under a literal occupation by Russia.

As a reminder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#369

Post by BuyMyBitcoins »

toast0 wrote: post #309
jijijijij wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point isn't if it's been a good decision at the time (I don't think it's been much of a decision at all), but rather that Russia wouldn't have invaded Ukraine, if Ukraine was still armed with nuclear weapons. Hindsight is 20/20, but the world took notice.

Are 20 year unmaintained weapons an effective deterent? Would there have been capacity to resist occupation if it wasn't? Would Ukraine have been coerced into some form of union through economic means and would that be better or worse for the people of Ukraine than the invasions? All sorts of questions to ask. Yes, if our timeline was otherwise unchanged, but the nukes were kept and maintained, it seems unlikely that…

While Ukraine had Soviet nuclear weapons, it did not have the launch codes, infrastructure, technical knowledge, or the economy needed to convert them into an arsenal under their sovereign control. Moscow still “held the keys” for all of those warheads.

Given how insistent the international community was on making sure those nukes were disposed of, and how economically devastated post Soviet countries were, I don’t think Ukraine stood any chance of having a nuclear deterrent.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#370

Post by jasonvorhe »

hkpack wrote: post #351
jasonvorhe wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Europe stopped letting Russian conscription refugees cross the border. I'm not Russian either.

There is no such thing as russian conscription refugees - all of the invading army consists of military contractors now. It was a brief period in 2022 where russia was forced to conscript to save itself from total loss.

https://chateurope.eu/en/europe-faces-dilemma-on-russians-fl...
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