Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#361

Post by implements » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 7:13 AM UTC

howinteresting wrote: post #337

Causality1 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmation-only in the form of behaving as if women and transwomen are indistinguishable is not always productive. For an example, if you write a feature telling people to watch and cheer on women speedrunners but you only include people who were successful male speedrunners before their transition you are not encouraging more women to join the hobby.

Obviously cis and trans women are not completely indistinguishable -- they have overlapping but distinct medical needs, for example. This is a strawman position. However, GCs tend to believe in an oppositionally sexist view of the world, where your assigned sex at birth puts you in one of two firm categories, and any sort of crossing over or breach between categories is impossible. That's how GCs construct their cate…

The overlap is because they’re both human, not both forms of women.

Sexism is “prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender. Sexism can affect anyone, but it primarily affects women and girls. It has been linked to stereotypes and gender roles, and may include the belief that one sex or gender is intrinsically superior to another”.

GCs reject sexism. Rejecting sexism doesn’t mean rejecting the reality of men and women being genetically distinct and having different body plans for the purposes of reproduction. Rejecting sexism doesn’t mean refusing to discriminate when discrimination is necessary for the socially just goal of sexual and gender equality.

Sex is recognised at birth, not assigned at birth - it’s determined at fertilisation: XX or XY.

Assuming you’re a transwoman. Your sex is male, and your gender is feminine. Women and transwomen substantially share a gender, given most women choose to be feminine and most transwomen feel compelled to present and be seen as feminine.

This is fine, every GC person I know accepts the right of individuals to choose their expressed gender and be free from unreasonable discrimination. What we don’t accept is the refusal to acknowledge that women also have a sex-based component of identity that transwomen don’t share.

I appreciate that this causes psychological stress to people with a dysphoria that is only calmed by affirmation of successfully changed sex - but - the physical reality of the situation can not be changed or rationally denied.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#362

Post by howinteresting » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 7:41 AM UTC

implements wrote: post #361

howinteresting wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously cis and trans women are not completely indistinguishable -- they have overlapping but distinct medical needs, for example. This is a strawman position. However, GCs tend to believe in an oppositionally sexist view of the world, where your assigned sex at birth puts you in one of two firm categories, and any sort of crossing over or breach between categories is impossible. That's how GCs construct their cate…

The overlap is because they’re both human, not both forms of women. Sexism is “prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender. Sexism can affect anyone, but it primarily affects women and girls. It has been linked to stereotypes and gender roles, and may include the belief that one sex or gender is intrinsically superior to another”. GCs reject sexism. Rejecting sexism doesn’t mean rejecting the realit…

These are all specific constructed definitions of "sex" that do a poor job of modeling the reality of variation in humanity.

There is no fundamental law of the universe which says that sex must be defined through gametes or chromosomes.

In any case, all this definition stuff is secondary to how our actual lives are affected by this nonsense. As a transfeminine person I've been using women's bathrooms for many years without incident, but most GCs would want to make that illegal. Many GCs think I shouldn't have access to healthcare for my breasts. All my friends and coworkers use my pronouns, but many GCs would refuse to. The list goes on.

GCs say they want me to live a life free of discrimination but also want to put me in situations where I'm going to face discrimination, like making it harder for me to update my documents. It's all lies fueled by distrust and hatred.

I'm just a normal person who wants to live my life in a self-respecting manner. I don't ever want to interact with a GC but I'm forced to because their policy recommendations keep getting in my way. I really want to do better things with my life than deal with a bunch of boundary cops.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#363

Post by fistmyassdang » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 7:44 AM UTC

thefz wrote: post #88

debacle wrote: post #24

My interaction with reddit is now nearly zero. I turned on ad block some time ago. I will visit /r/todayilearned in the early morning while laying in bed, and I will use subreddits to research purchases. It is much more satisfying to remove /r/all from the reddit equation. I can't even visit my local subreddit anymore because the amount of censorship by moderators is staggering. The dark marketing, once you can see i…

I know it sounds trite, but most small-ish subreddit communities are still sane. Avoid the main ones like the plague though.

In the same vein, avoid Hacker News.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#364

Post by implements » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 8:01 AM UTC

krrrh wrote: post #358

howinteresting wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously cis and trans women are not completely indistinguishable -- they have overlapping but distinct medical needs, for example. This is a strawman position. However, GCs tend to believe in an oppositionally sexist view of the world, where your assigned sex at birth puts you in one of two firm categories, and any sort of crossing over or breach between categories is impossible. That's how GCs construct their cate…

> puts you in one of two firm categories, and any sort of crossing over or breach between categories is impossible I find this debate interesting so I try to read a lot of different perspectives. I think the /r/gendercritical position was more nuanced than you make it out. They think that while humans can’t change their sex, rigid ideas of what it is to be a man or woman are one of the things that causes some people…

> They think that while humans can’t change their sex, rigid ideas of what it is to be a man or woman are one of the things that causes some people to feel like they need to. They would say that society should accept a and encourage a broader range of expressions of femaleness and maleness than it does now.

I can’t speak for all GC people, but for me it’s more a rejection of seeing certain behaviours as gendered at all - rather than things individuals may do.

Current trans ideology makes what sex people identify as vitally important, and something that requires gate keeping by femininity. “Womanhood is for feminine people, being feminine is the most important aspect of who I am”.

The GC position, ironically, sees sex as primarily important for the purposes of reproduction - though, in the context of ongoing sexual inequality also important for social justice. “Womanhood is for female people, being female is a relatively minor aspect of who I am as a unique individual”.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#365

Post by TomSwirly » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 8:23 AM UTC

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #318

zozbot234 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Media reference guides" are not absolute in any sense, however. They're simply another sort of social advocacy.

To put it bluntly, calling a transgender woman a "trans-identified male" and a "young and deeply troubled boy" is very poor taste.

It is. I found it hard to wade through the article.

That said, the accusations, which appear to be substantiated and in some cases legally proven, are truly nauseating.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#366

Post by test12345aq » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 8:36 AM UTC

jhanschoo wrote: post #359

minusSeven wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess they don't understand streisand effect. If you explicitly ban people will follow that rule but what happens when people get around by using some made up name different from original. Are admins going to read every comment on the platform to uphold this rule?

I don't think it applies in this case: the rule was already in place and unnoticed until a high-profile incident drew attention to it: they are not trying to suppress mention as a response to newfound notoriety.

the 'no doxing' rule hasn't generally applied to reddit admins and users who are also public figures - the founders, for example

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#367

Post by test12345aq » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 8:38 AM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #353

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t doxx a public politician by “revealing” their name...

You can doxx a reddit employee that way. The problem comes up when you've hired a politician as a reddit employee, and you're written an algorithm that only cares about if someone is a reddit employee.

"an algorithm"

one that navigates to a linked article and notices a single sentence mentioning this admin's name, vanishes the post and bans the moderator who approved it?

sounds a lot more like 'reddit admin decided to abuse powers in an attempt to hide any link to how she once hired her paedophile father and was removed from a political party'

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#368

Post by TomSwirly » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 8:38 AM UTC

morpheos137 wrote: post #350

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this on Twitter recently: "The reason why so many extremely woke people turn out to have been bigoted in the past is because bigotry used to be the best way to bully and intimidate people, but now performative anti-bigotry is the best way to bully and intimidate people. An evolving toolset for sociopaths." https://twitter.com/shantmm/status/1364992332064378880 To me, that's one of the best explanation of what…

Performative anti-bigotry is just bigotry afterall.

Justify your statement, which is basically A & !A

Please note that bias against bigots is not, actually, bigotry.

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#369

Post by randomswede » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 8:41 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #259

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So these are typically not conversations that queer people have outside of queer circles, because people like you cannot be trusted to engage in good faith or in a way that respects us as people, and your attempt to rules lawyer the complexities of human attraction and identity as though it’s some fun intellectual exercise for you (when for us it is often life or death) is evidence of why. Anyway, it is incredibly di…

What about lesbians who are concerned that some AMAB folks in their community might simply objectify them sexually, in a way that others would be a lot less likely to? Doesn't that seem like a good reason to be a bit warier when interacting with some group of people?

There's quite a gap between "there are some women lesbian L would not date" and "all trans women are really men".

Re: Reddit is banning any Aimee Challenor mention. UK public figure and Reddit admin

#370

Post by randomswede » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 8:50 AM UTC

implements wrote: post #241

DanBC wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people pushing hatred against trans people dress it up in nice language so useful idiots then go around saying things like "keeping a critical attitude is entirely legitimate". The gender critical movement is based on antisemitic conspiracy theories (eg Bilek) and unhinged hatred of trans people (eg Glinner).

You know, it really isn’t. I’m “Gender Critical”, because like many people born in the 1960s I see women as being a group of individuals primarily discriminated against by virtue of their sex - particularly in regards to contraception and the economic and social consequences of reproduction. Sex is biological and objectively real. Gender is a social construct relating to imposed standards of masculinity or femininity…

Sex is biologically and objectively real, but also (most probably) more complicated than you would guess.

It is really not as hard and fast as "there's men" and "there's women" and "you can tell them apart by a quick genetic test".

There's basically a sliding scale from "definitely male" to "definitely female" (in unmodified body) and a mostly-but-not-always correspondence between said body and the genetic markers (XX and XY).

If the testosterone receptor codons are damaged, the extra testosterone that the XY chromosome normally produce will not get a chance to influence the fetus, so any make characteristics will be under-developed (or not developed at all). Heck, there have even been genetically XY people who have sustained pregnancy and given birth.

I mean, somewhere between 0.02% and 0.05% are born with effectively both make and female sexual characteristics.

So, yes, as long as you insist that "there are two sexes, and it is objectively easy to say which one is which", I would say that it is, if not hateful, at least ignorant and disrespectful.