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Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

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Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#361
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basket case economies are reflected in bond yields. The US pays little to borrow money because it is a safe haven. Or because it uses its huge military might to make sure it is so.

The market doesn't distinguish the root cause of safe-havenism. There's a reason people think military-industrial is a sensible use of financial resources.

>The market doesn't distinguish the root cause of safe-havenism.

Of course. The market only cares for the bottom end.

I'm saying it though for those pretending the market is some victimless activity, that's not about power at all, etc, and "hard working people" (and countries) prevail.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A vanishing middle-class is not healthy. Everyone's been picking at all your claims except this one, so let me jump in on this part. You've been drinking too much of the kool-aid. It's certainly fashionable for talking heads to spout platitudes about the middle class, but it doesn't match the real world. The picture that's being painted is that the vast majority of us will be living lives as serfs, while a group of o…

>>In fact, the VAST majority of Americans are better off than they ever have been. Check out this [1], for example, based on US census data. Yes, the middle class has been disappearing, but they haven’t fallen into the lower class, they’ve risen into the upper class http://www.aei.org/publication/yes-the-middle-class-has-been... -- You need to pick your sources a little more carefully. The organization whose article…

You need to pick your sources a little more carefully.

I'm always annoyed at the invocation of the logical fallacy that the source of an argument renders it inadmissible. Not only is it a fallacy, but it's typically (but not in your case, especially since you're offering a specific criticism!) invoked by someone simply assuming that their own source is sacrosanct. That said...

You may have a point, but it's not fatal to my argument. It maybe renders mine less strong.

Why would you think that women entering the workforce must be treated exogenously? I think it's proper to consider this part of the overall improvement.

For the years shown in my chart, the shift of women into the workforce was well underway. Even in 1950, women accounted for about 30% of the workforce [1]. So by my thumbnail estimation, the increase from ~1965 (when my original chart began) on is nowhere near large enough to account for the effect I showed.

Further, women entering the workforce is central to my second point about it finding oneself in the lower income tiers is significantly a personal choice. If the rest of the world has passed you by, it's still your own choices that are holding your back.

Without making any moral claims at all, purely based on mathematics, the two-income family has advantages beyond simply having double the income. As I alluded to, by sharing tasks and specializing within the family (e.g., I cook while my wife does the laundry), we're able to lower total expenses because we save enough time between us that more can be done without outsourcing work. It also offers better risk management. One partner can pursue a riskier but potentially more lucrative job, without fearing losing the family's only income. I have several friends doing this kind of thing, with one spouse running a small business while the other has a corporate job (including the medical care it implies). And if one spouse does lose their income, the consequences are much less dire, as there's some semblance of a buffer protecting them.

Thus, even aside from the simple doubling of family income as women entered the workplace, they shifted the picture so that more wealth could be created in total by protecting against greater risks.

But this is all endogenous to the question. Through their own means (in many cases, that being the decision of a woman to enter the workforce), Americans have transformed their demographics such that incomes have shifted strongly toward the higher end of the scale.

[1] http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2002/05/art2full.pdf page 2 (PDF warning)

EDIT: I'd stupidly left the parens in para 4 empty; went back to fill them in.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more or less US anti-communist propaganda. I've been to china once, lived with Chinese Nationals for several years, and currently telecommute with partners in China. There is wide spread support for the party. People do understand that the chinese system is unique, and not necessarily the only government system. They simply believe it is better. Which from a socio-economic outlook it kind of has been for the p…

I think it's also important to understand that before the Communists took power, China had spent more than a century being trampled by various foreign powers, starting with the British and expanding from there, and finally ending with the Japanese rampaging through the country in the lead-up to WWII. Under the Communists, China put a stop to all of this and became a major power again. There are certainly problems in…

"Great Leap Forward"?

Improvements only came when they abandoned communism, and came up with a fig leaf of 'mao was 80% correct'

It is hard to rewrite history with a different set of rules, but I think it's fair to say that given the experience of Hong Kong, China would have been better off without 30-40 years of communist rule.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#364

People's investment philosophy will vary and tolerance for risk will play a major role in it all. My own view is this, and it is based on a lifetime of having made all the typical mistakes. Steady is the best way to go for your investable funds. That means, go with stocks for a decent segment of your investments but temper this with investments that will help preserve capital when things get rocky. Keep a ratio betwe…

The FTSE is where it was 17 years ago. Since this time everything has gotten way more expensive. Anyone in the UK following this advice from age 20 to 35 is staring down the barrel of working forever. The problem is they have a share in growth in the UK over the past 15 years and that growth is next to nothing. IMHO the old advice needs to be taken with caution. This is not your dad's market.

i don't know much about stocks but agree with your last line in general, encapsulated by patio11's tweet

    I occasionally get asked for advice by students. Biggest one: resist following scripts which evolved to serve a world which no longer exists

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#365
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are you going on about? If capitalism is a race to the bottom, we would have reached it a long time ago. Only for a long time it had internal pressure (workers demands) and external pressure (the Cold war etc). Else we'd be still with child labor, 14 hours work day and such...

Workers and their demands are part of capitalism, as one of the sides of the labor market.

[deleted]

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#366
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's also important to understand that before the Communists took power, China had spent more than a century being trampled by various foreign powers, starting with the British and expanding from there, and finally ending with the Japanese rampaging through the country in the lead-up to WWII. Under the Communists, China put a stop to all of this and became a major power again. There are certainly problems in…

"Great Leap Forward"? Improvements only came when they abandoned communism, and came up with a fig leaf of 'mao was 80% correct' It is hard to rewrite history with a different set of rules, but I think it's fair to say that given the experience of Hong Kong, China would have been better off without 30-40 years of communist rule.

Not only Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore too. It's an experiment with control groups.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers and their demands are part of capitalism, as one of the sides of the labor market.

Not if capitalists can prevent it, crush it, disallow it, etc -- along with their friends in the goverment, with "right to work" laws, etc. It's funny that for something supposedly pragmatic and empirical, as capitalism, there are people invoking the "no true capitalism" defense. I mean when they say that in "true capitalism" the government would not interfere and the market would adjust itself etc, where in real lif…

> It's funny that for something supposedly pragmatic and empirical, as capitalism, there are people invoking the "no true capitalism" defense.

This is hugely disingenuous. It's about as fair as crying "no true socialism" if someone were to say "moving towards socialism leads to mass famine! Just look at Mao!".

I think part of what makes conversations like this so frustrating for everyone involved is that people are using vastly different definitions. Those decrying capitalism are usually defining "socialism" as a mixed-market economy and capitalism as an unfettered "pure" Randian market economy. (In conversations critical of socialism, you usually see the opposite dynamic).

The fact of the matter is that mixed-market economies are basically ubiquitous at this point, and for good reason. It's a lot easier to find a common understanding on which to debate when everyone is clear what the actual disagreement is: the market is good at certain things and bad at others, and gov't action is a sensible alternative in the areas it's better at (of which there are quite a few, not least dealing with externalities) or a damaging hindrance in the areas where it's worse than the market mechanism (explicitly setting prices, in most cases). The disagreement is over which things go in which category, which is a far less flame-baity way of thinking of it than "capitalism/socialism is just bad!".

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. You aren't wrong, per-say, you just list all things that have literally 0 to do with the actual problems. Its a very common political trick for an ideologue like yourself to grab a bunch of things they think are bad and argue they are the cause of all your ills. You are approaching things from a "this is good for people, it must be good for the count…

Excellent points. Most people confuse macroeconomics with microeconomics. You cannot apply the principles of personal finance to a national economy.

Macroeconomics is (in my opinion) the science of applying statistical analysis to microeconomics in such a way that it retroactively justifies whatever it is the power-elites are already doing. As such, there is a lot of hand-waving, misdirection, and misuse of language in it. Whenever someone says "deflation," I must immediately ask "of what?" Production costs? Retail prices? Wages? Quantity of circulating currency?

Most of the time, an unqualified "deflation" means "a trend of declining retail prices, as measured by non-adjusted currency." And I know why economists in the employ of monetary authorities hate it. It means that there was a missed opportunity for that authority to steal more from the economy by inflating the money supply at a faster rate.

Ordinary price deflation is beneficial [for the working class]. It allows you to buy more stuff with less of your own labor. You can buy a computer today that is vastly more capable than one from 1995, at maybe 20% the cost, as measured by your own labor. You might have spent two weeks of gross wages back then. Now, you might spend 2 days of your work.

Working people usually spend at least 2000 hours of their own labor per year, for a span of about 50 years. They have to budget that 100000 hours out for everything they will ever want or need. They can't get more stuff for free just by printing off a few more bills or raising taxes. So everybody loves it when they can all get more stuff with the same amount of work, and everybody hates it when they have to work twice as hard to only get the same amount of stuff their parents had.

The economy hasn't just been in the toilet since the 80s. Real wages for working class families have been in decline since 1970. And the cause (in my opinion) was economists who pretended that macroeconomics was something other than a simple summation of many thousands of individual microeconomic models. They pretended that "government" was some magical economic actor that could defy the laws of microeconomics, by gradually moving numbers from the "truth" column of the ledger into "lies", from "lies" to "damned lies", and finally putting them into "statistics", where they could safely be explained away, hidden in margins for error, or redefined into nothing.

This is what monetary authorities and their pet macroeconomists have given us since 1970. The ordinary march of human progress--which has steadily given us an approximate annualized return of 1.5% per year, failing only temporarily due to wars, plagues, or other catastrophes--now goes directly into an annual inflation of the money supply of at least 1.5%. This has transformed global commerce from an ever-rising tide that floats all boats, into one where only the yachts float higher as the canoes, coracles, skiffs, and dinghies get swamped.

You can and should apply the principles of personal finance to national economies. You may learn something about macroeconomics that you didn't suspect before.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing most HN commenters don't have the liquidity to become rich off a crash, unless they had knowledge in specific industries and companies that were set to get hit hardest. Not all Chinese sectors of industry are equally hurt by this collapse. Besides, it wasn't just this commenter who predicted it. Many have before. In fact, even the laypress TV news like 60-Minutes have pointed out issues that will cause m…

The problem is that many people are continously predicting a crash. If you grant that they're right now, you also have to grant that they've been wrong for years . Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

However, it is possible for a clock to be running but set to the wrong time, and therefore never right...

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that many people are continously predicting a crash. If you grant that they're right now, you also have to grant that they've been wrong for years . Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Not fair. A well-regulated system would NEVER crash. That this one does, and folks predicted it, has nothing to do with timing, and everything to do with cogent analysis of a flawed system.

Perhaps not. But by that definition, this isn't a crash, either. It is a rapid but orderly sell-off, and while we don't like it, it (by itself) does not indicate flaws in the system.
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