Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices • Hacker News Board

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#351

Post by hef19898 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:37 AM UTC

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #313

rualca wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this really pushing the envelope though? Routine drug testing by employers, for example, has been considered totally acceptable by society for decades now. I don't know what's the experience in the US, but in my home country everyone has a little booklet they carry with them since pretty much birth where we register not only when we took vaccines, such as measles or tetanus or hepatitis, but also when we should…

The radical change is when you make access to events, places and employment conditional on this passport's contents.

The radical change is that previous generations took, at scale, vaccines against Polio and Small Pox. To the point these diseases don't matter really anymore. Today we tend to prioritize personal inconvenience over a truely greater good.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#352

Post by me_me_me » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:38 AM UTC

nindalf wrote: post #184

I’ve typed out 3 comments to 3 separate people before deleting them. I didn’t see the point. Folks, it’s a good idea to heed dang’s warning at the top of the thread. I’ve read all the comments and can confidently say there’s nothing worth reading here. Just people absolutely convinced of their ideas and principles, shouting past each other. Nothing we haven’t seen on this topic 50 times before. You’re better off goin…

You are right, people who has contrarian views are only more entranced upon hearing counter arguments.

Though the delta variant clearly shows vaccine works but if you get infected you don't die. Even with infection spikes in France or Spain for example you don't see deaths spike.

In the low vaccination countries you see spike in the infections and in deaths.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#353

Post by bellyfullofbac » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:39 AM UTC

yosito wrote: post #263

ReadEvalPost wrote: post #222

I'm really upset with this decision. I have not gotten the vaccine as I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID over the unknown longitudinal risk of the vaccine. My right to make these personal decisions regarding my bodily autonomy is extremely important to me. Under no circumstances will I yield that decision to my employer! Their demand only further reinforces my desire not to take the vaccine. W…

Honest question: why do you say the risk of COVID is known, while the risks of the vaccines are not? Both have been around and exceptionally well studied for more than a year. We have pretty thorough data on the risks of both, don't we?

Not OP, but I guess some anti-vaxxers are wary that what if the vaccination has some "time-bomb" where bad things happen say 5 years after you take it.

But if they're worried about that, they should also be worried about stuff the virus might do in the long term.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#354

Post by chii » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

version_five wrote: post #97

paxys wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this really pushing the envelope though? Routine drug testing by employers, for example, has been considered totally acceptable by society for decades now. I'd consider a one-time proof of vaccination against a deadly pandemic to be far less intrusive than that.

Is routine drug testing universally considered acceptable? If I'm going to be a pilot, maybe. For a developer job, I would never consider one that asked for a drug test (I don't use drugs just to be clear, my objection is to a company having any say in what people do on their own time). People complain about having to do a coding test during the interview process, but somehow it's ok to verify that you don't smoke po…

> what people do on their own time

if taking drugs would cause bleed-over effects into the job time, then it's not really only affecting their own time, and thus, the employer has the right to control it partially.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#355

Post by andrepd » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

grepfru_it wrote: post #273

ano88888 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given dang's comment on guideline, I really don't want to comment back . However, I am just feeling so angry. So many people have unnecessarily died because someone has the wrong idea of risk calculation or political bias in disguise despite all the scientific data. I am sorry. You have a right to not be vaccinated. You have a right to whine about it. But government and organizations also have the right from preventi…

>I am not sorry about people like you getting infected or hospitalized. I was one of those people this time last year. No one was feeling sorry then either. Don't worry I'll get a booster shot when it is due, but I've done my part. Please don't lump me in with the unvaxxed. EDIT: to be clear, i was just an innocent bystander who caught covid-19 early on while no one could possibly believe i was having the symptoms th…

Obviously he was referring to people with the possibility of having the vaccine which deliberately reject it, not people who couldn't have it.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#356

Post by pulse7 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

jsolson wrote: post #304

ReadEvalPost wrote: post #222

I'm really upset with this decision. I have not gotten the vaccine as I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID over the unknown longitudinal risk of the vaccine. My right to make these personal decisions regarding my bodily autonomy is extremely important to me. Under no circumstances will I yield that decision to my employer! Their demand only further reinforces my desire not to take the vaccine. W…

> I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID I'm a little confused by this. I live in King County, WA (and I work at Google). According to data reported by the county (as tabulated by the NY Times), one in 19 residents have contracted COVID[0]. That's >5% -- with a 1.8% case fatality rate in the US[1]. That's a bit below a one in 1000 chance of having died of COVID if you live in my county, including…

Maybe he is living isolated in a remote location...

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#357

Post by jeofken » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

oldcigarette wrote: post #90

I work at google and am vaxxed but this pisses me off. I decided that the vaccine was worth the risk and for the best overall but if someone makes a different calculus I can understand and respect that. IMHO they gone way outside the reasonable scope of an employer - this is a cultural decision at the society level - why the fuck does my employer give a shit about this. Unless the employees are only commuting back an…

If you’re programming, I encourage you to get into self employment. Your customers will care about your output, reliability, and value to them.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#358

Post by Pyramus » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

tpxl wrote: post #334

Pyramus wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Evolutionary pressure selects for less deadly viruses over time. I'm hearing that for the first time, do you have a source? > longitudinal risk With longitudinal I meant the risk of what we have labelled 'long Covid' but really seems to be a conglomerate of different, sometimes chronic diseases in different people, that we still don't really know how to treat effectively (not very frequent in absolute terms, but or…

>> Evolutionary pressure selects for less deadly viruses over time. > I'm hearing that for the first time, do you have a source? A virus that kills its host before it has a chance to infect others cannot reproduce. I cannot remember which virus it was (might have been ebola) but it wiped whole communities so fast it died off because there were no new hosts to infect.

Not sure if that's what parent meant - these are extreme cases. In general (e.g. in the case of SARS-Cov2) evolutionary pressure will increase transmissibility but is indifferent to lethality (again up to the extreme point where lethality precludes transmission).

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#359

Post by andyjohnson0 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

ReadEvalPost wrote: post #244

mjburgess wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you factoring in risk to others? The aggregate risk of a poorly-vaccinated population is, presumably, still likely much higher than the "longitudinal risks" of vaccines? ie., it seems unlikely to me that vaccines will kill 100,000s (and, with covid continuing, 10s,000s+/yr). Even doing this based on individual preference alone, presumably you have preferences for the safety of (some) others; of your workplace; et…

Yes, of course I think about others. I would never go in with symptoms of any infectious disease. Were I asked to work in a building away from people that are high-risk or are regularly in contact with high-risk people I would easily oblige. There are multiple possible solutions that do not violate my bodily autonomy. I agree with your assessment that major adverse effects are unlikely, but ultimately unknowns are im…

> Yes, of course I think about others. I would never go in with symptoms of any infectious disease.

Its not as simple as that. Most covid transmission occurs when the infecting person is asymptomatic. And approximately 30% of people who get covid have no significant symptoms at all.

You have a right to make decisions about your body and medical treatment. And, taken on its own, the decisions you make are very unlikely to make a significant difference to the outcomes for the society that you live in. But when large numbers of people decide, like you, to prioritise their own autonomy over the safety of their community, we end-up with a situation that is exploitable by the disease. The way to beat it is to act together. Sincerely, I'd urge you to consider this.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#360

Post by bawolff » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:47 AM UTC

ReadEvalPost wrote: post #222

I'm really upset with this decision. I have not gotten the vaccine as I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID over the unknown longitudinal risk of the vaccine. My right to make these personal decisions regarding my bodily autonomy is extremely important to me. Under no circumstances will I yield that decision to my employer! Their demand only further reinforces my desire not to take the vaccine. W…

And if the risk was only to yourself, by all means that would be reasonable. But it isn't.

When we work, we give all sorts of autonomy up. That what work literally is, exchanging some autonomy for some money. Most obviously that means doing parts of the job you don't like (docs aint going to write themselves). Some places it means wearing a tie (eww). My last job made me sign a document saying i agree never to bring a firearm to work.

All these things hinder my autonomy. Some may be more aceptable than others (eww dress code. Not interested in wearing a tie. But also wouldn't want to work at a nudist workplace either). In any case, almost every workplace has policies that prevent you from doing things that threaten the safety of other employees or their families. This is hardly much different.