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Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

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Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#311

Post by joshuamorton »

josh_today wrote: post #302
jwilber wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deaths lag so the point is irrelevant. You could just as easily argue it points in favor of vaccines.

The “wait 2 weeks” argument did not work for Florida when they took the lead, nor Texas when they had the first full capacity sporting event, and not India when they were on the “brink of collapse”. Delta is confirmed to be more contagious and less deadly. In a few weeks the numbers will be low regardless of what measures are taken. But the forced vaccination of federal, municipal, and private employees will be given…

> Delta is confirmed to be more contagious and less deadly.

Sort of, delta is confirmed to be less contagious and less deadly among a (significantly) vaccinated population. It is probably more contagious than the initial variant among an unvaccinated population, yes. But whether or not its more or less deadly, or whether vaccines + improved treatments have reduced the severity/survivability isn't clear. So delta is less deadly in practice at a population level, but it might be more deadly in only the unvaccinated population, or the same, or less. We don't really know.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#312

Post by josh_today »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #250
josh_today wrote: post #148

Today the entire state of New York had ZERO covid related deaths. Yet this week we saw NYC and State employees and now major private corporations mandate the vaccine. For the record I will never disclosure my health status so don’t assume one way or another.

Should they wait until after people start dying again to implement preventative measures or something? This is exactly the kind of bizarrely short-sighted reasoning that results in pandemics exploding in the first place: "Things aren't bad yet , so why do we need to do anything??"

Where do we end this then? Do we continue implementing lockdowns, mask mandates, forced vaccinations with every ebbs and flow…

Or do we realize our urgent care infrastructure has enough capacity, deaths are down- zero on some days, vaccines are available for free for anyone that wants one, masks can be worn by anyone anywhere when they feel uncomfortable, and actually start promoting a healthy lifestyle.

Or do you want to be in a perpetual state of a government controlled health crisis

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#313

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

rualca wrote: post #167
paxys wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this really pushing the envelope though? Routine drug testing by employers, for example, has been considered totally acceptable by society for decades now. I'd consider a one-time proof of vaccination against a deadly pandemic to be far less intrusive than that.

> Is this really pushing the envelope though? Routine drug testing by employers, for example, has been considered totally acceptable by society for decades now. I don't know what's the experience in the US, but in my home country everyone has a little booklet they carry with them since pretty much birth where we register not only when we took vaccines, such as measles or tetanus or hepatitis, but also when we should…

The radical change is when you make access to events, places and employment conditional on this passport's contents.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#314

Post by deanclatworthy »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #266
deanclatworthy wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the case. Many people who are double vaccinated are testing positive for COVID and therefore capable of spreading it: https://archive.is/sYyMf Look at the data from the UK. The pandemic is far from over there, although hospitalisations are far far lower than previous peaks. There is a non-significant amount of immunocompromised people in the UK (1million+). Maybe the data we are seeing is because the immu…

> Many people who are double vaccinated are testing positive for COVID and therefore capable of spreading it Yes, but the fact that symptoms tend to be much weaker in the vaccinated likely means it's less likely to spread from them. Currently, the problem is that we have those breakthrough cases, plus also the unvaccinated still spreading the disease. That said, it's true that the new delta variant may mean we need f…

As mentioned in the parent comment I made, it's a game of odds. It's one thing wearing a mask at the supermarket and passing someone with covid. But if I go to the office, pick up COVID, and I live in the same home as someone who is immunocompromised, they don't stand a chance. This is the reality for many millions of families around the world.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#315

Post by joshuamorton »

grepfru_it wrote: post #282
yosito wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If these vaccines were regular, inactivated virus vaccines There are also inactivated viral vector vaccines for COVID. I got J&J because it was what was available to me. I would have gotten an mRNA vaccine if I could. I agree that the mRNA vaccines should be studied for long term effects, but with what we know about them so far, my prediction is that we will find them to be much safer in the long term than viral ve…

>I expect that I challenge you to try again without assumptions! Unless you are saying, for those who are unsure of long term health risks, to just follow your expectations? Please take a pause before replying to understand why people are hesitant to blindly follow the blind

There actually have been mRNA vaccine trials for more than a decade[0]. The thing about mRNA vaccines is that they have far fewer moving parts, so to speak, than conventional vaccines. So the mRNA vaccine for two different diseases will differ far less than two conventional vaccines for different diseases.

As I understand it, a reasonable comparison is between two mRNA vaccines and two flu vaccines from different years. So if you trust the 10 years of studies that don't show any long term negative effects, and you trust that the particular protein won't have long term ill effects (and, well, if it does, you'd also get them from the virus and probably worse), then the set of assumptions you need to make are relatively small, and essentially the same as the ones you'd make in getting any given flu vaccine.

So please also take the time to educate yourself before calling others "blind"!

[0]: https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/evolution-mrna-v...

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#316

Post by adamors »

Pozzuh wrote: post #214
adamors wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how are multiple infections possible? I know several people who have been sick with COVID 2 times already.

This is anecdotal. There are people getting infected (and even sick) whilst being vaccinated as well. The vast majority of people however, are not.

The claim was

> previously infected’s antibodies are equal-to or better than the vaccine

Better how? If they still get reinfected (and they do) then how is this quantified?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#317

Post by joshuahughes »

Steltek wrote: post #68
paxys wrote: post #52

One angle that isn't being discussed – having vaccinated employees greatly reduces healthcare costs for the company and its insurance provider. I'm sure they would love to enforce vaccinations, annual checkups, healthy diet, exercise, no smoking etc. among employees as a condition for providing insurance or employment if there wasn't a social pushback for doing so.

Isn't it simpler than that? Fewer employees taking unnecessary extended sick leave, which endangers deadlines and complicates project planning. I would be pissed if I need to upend a release if some unvaccinated idiot won himself a trip to the ICU.

> some unvaccinated idiot won himself a trip to the ICU

Don't know what it's like over in the US, but here in the UK 'the vaccinated' aren't some tiny percentage of hospitalisations. Actually, they're currently sitting around 40%, which means there's almost as much chance of your VACCINATED colleague "winning himself a trip to the ICU" as the unvaccinated. You might want to use the word 'idiot' more cautiously.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vallance-corrects-mistak...

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#318

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

astannard wrote: post #295

Spock logic "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" as an individual it will feel wrong but from the point of view for the many it seem selfish. I do think people with no vaccine now are becoming more and more at risk as the vaccinated population grows with more social interaction without much consequence to the vaccinated. This has increased the risks to the unvaccinated. Being a holdout is not a great pos…

That's not the right dichotomy, protecting individual rights and workers rights is protecting the needs of the many.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#319

Post by weeks »

josh_today wrote: post #296
karmasimida wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, what is your point? So you are saying would come to the workplace, knowingly not vaccinated, and feeling no problem at all?

If that’s your choice. And if you want to get vaccinated, keep up with boosters, and wear a mask in the workplace that can be your choice as well.

Do I have a choice not to work with you?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#320

Post by josh_today »

joshuamorton wrote: post #311
josh_today wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “wait 2 weeks” argument did not work for Florida when they took the lead, nor Texas when they had the first full capacity sporting event, and not India when they were on the “brink of collapse”. Delta is confirmed to be more contagious and less deadly. In a few weeks the numbers will be low regardless of what measures are taken. But the forced vaccination of federal, municipal, and private employees will be given…

> Delta is confirmed to be more contagious and less deadly. Sort of, delta is confirmed to be less contagious and less deadly among a (significantly) vaccinated population. It is probably more contagious than the initial variant among an unvaccinated population, yes. But whether or not its more or less deadly, or whether vaccines + improved treatments have reduced the severity/survivability isn't clear. So delta is l…

Agreed and it’s the “we don’t really know” but we’re forcing the vaccine on everyone that’s the problem. What we do know is that vaccinated can still catch and spread covid. The stats of breakthrough cases are skewed due to the CDCs methodology of tracking covid infections among the vaccinated.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/bre...

There have been cases of covid infections among enclosed vaccinated groups

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/27/fully-vaccinated-alaska-crui...

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/31889367/indianapolis-co...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57830617

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