My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community • Hacker News Board

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#351

Post by eloff » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

dmit wrote: post #322

eloff wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't matter what the perpetrator thinks. I think it may be the only thing that can decide the difference between a crime here or not. If the other person gives consent, then how you judge their ability to make their own decisions here is the difference between having intent to rape or not having intent. Intent matters in a lot of crimes, I don't think it matters in rape cases - I could be wrong. > Is the perp…

> So the victim has no responsibility if blood alcohol level is too high for good judgment, but the perpetrator is responsible no matter their blood alcohol level and judgment? Exactly. That's why they're called 'victim' and 'perpetrator'. If the victim got triple blackout drunk, the only person they'd hurt is themselves. But the rapist, in addition to physical damage, inflicts deep, lasting psychological damage upon…

Ok, let's say it's a man and a women, she's the "perpetrator" and he gives consent. She's his boss and they're on a business trip and drank too much at the bar. In the morning he feels taken advantage of and deeply regrets it because he's married. Do you still stand by that?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#352

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

[deleted]

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#353

Post by zo1 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

andrewzah wrote: post #168

Sebb767 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people who are accused are damned, period. I can see why mob justice can sometimes be the only options for victims, but the abuse potential is massive . By the way, I see no reason a woman or a trans person could not make this statement.

"but the abuse potential is massive." I think people grossly exaggerate this. We have libel and slander laws. Individual companies aside, entire communities of people aren't that stupid. In my opinion, this is a really pessimistic view of people and also not based in reality in my experience. At the end of the day, we need to be able to listen to victims. The amount of fake accusers compared to real victims is micros…

>"I think people grossly exaggerate this. We have libel and slander laws."

I don't understand what those laws have to do with this? As if they somehow protect a potentially innocent party from incorrect accusations? At what point would an accusation such as the one in the blog post even constitute as libel/slander?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#354

Post by ivan_gammel » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #132

ivan_gammel wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is generally a good idea and the right thing to do, but cancel culture still exists for some reason. Probably it's because people do not trust conventional justice and do not believe in law enforcement?

Law enforcement is not perfect and these crimes are often hard to prove in isolation. So worst case you go to law enforcement, they talk to the perpetrator but do nothing, and then the perpetrator mostly destroys your future career. A lot of downside and risk for the victim. You can look at the film industry for numerous famous examples of victims being blacklisted in retaliation.

That’s exactly my point. The law enforcement is not adequate to the needs of society and cannot offer efficient protection for victims. Cancel culture can be ugly, but for many it’s the only way to get justice, and it is a sign that some reform is needed.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#355

Post by Pfhreak » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #308

Pfhreak wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to victim blame here ... but does the victim bear some responsibility? The answer to your question is no. The victim bears no responsibility. The abuser took advantage of someone, who bears no fault for the result. There's no "well, both parties were in the wrong here". The abuser should not have abused the other party, no matter how vulnerable the other party made themselves. You specifically said you…

And what if they were consenting - I'm not saying that's the case here, I don't know obviously, I'm asking in general, just like my comment is a musing about the vagaries of when is consent not consent.

It's not vague. Consent is an enthusiastic and unambiguous yes. Was there an enthusiastic and unambiguous yes? You have consent. Was there not an enthusiastic and unambiguous yes? You do not have consent.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#356

Post by sneak » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

colecut wrote: post #272

epicureanideal wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

"What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?" This just pretty much does not happen without reason, and I think it is safe to say that if it did, you are probably a terrible person.

> This just pretty much does not happen without reason, and I think it is safe to say that if it did, you are probably a terrible person.

That's not a safe assumption at all.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#357

Post by ALittleLight » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #263

ALittleLight wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that's true and some Rasputin-like figure could manipulate you into believing you thought things that you didn't, but that doesn't seem to be what is alleged here. She wasn't living in this guy's cult, he helped her professionally and with conferences, and she agreed to share a room with him on a trip. That strikes me as less mind-control and more just a situation that people get into sometimes. She is and was…

She was left panicked and crying. That's not generally a sign that there was unambiguous consent. And it doesn't take a Rasputin-like figure to be an abuser. Plenty of people are taken advantage of and taught to believe things they later realize were abusive, even in relatively short situations. Pretty held all the power here -- he controlled where she was staying, he helped her get to the conference, she was intoxic…

She says that she remembers panicking and crying. I agree that those are both clear signs of non-consensual sex. Why does it take months and therapy for her to decode those clear signals? If Jon noticed her crying and panicking we would expect him to interpret that as a clear "I do not consent" signal.

The power Pretty holds here is pretty minor. He's helping her get into conferences and mentoring her. He "controlled where she was staying" in the sense that he made the reservation for their AirBnB. He's not confiscating her passport, she isn't destitute. She could've gotten another hotel, hostel, AirBnB. To be clear, I am not saying "She didn't get another room and so deserves to be raped" but I am saying that his "power" in this regard is pretty minor - just because someone is paying for your room that shouldn't make it impossible for you to say "No" to them.

A big part of why it is morally and legally wrong to have sex with children is that children aren't mature enough to make decisions about sex. Children cannot consent. You seem to be suggesting that a similar standard applies to this adult woman - she can't know if she consented to a sexual encounter or not. To me, that implies you are suggesting it should be illegal to have sex with this woman - after all, she apparently can't tell if she consented or not.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#358

Post by globular-toast » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

_f1dq wrote: post #280

There is a lot about the sexual events in this post that, to me, highlights something I feel is important which is: we parents need to get better had having conversations with our children around sex. This girl was feeling uncomfortable and crying but at the same time "didn't think those behaviors were problematic". I can't help but wonder if her parents never sat her down and discussed situations like this and, I ge…

Agreed. I can't believe a woman would be naïve enough to share a room with a man. For crying out loud, if a man invites you to a room with him alone he wants to have sex. It's that simple.

I think boys already are told what is acceptable and what isn't. We got taught, in no uncertain terms, what would be considered rape or sexual assault. But I think people are afraid to mention the obvious when it comes to things like putting yourself in uncomfortable situations.

I predict this comment will be downvoted, so let me anticipate your objections. I had my bike stolen last week. I left it somewhere unlocked. This is considered my fault. Now you could say, no, it's not my fault, it's the bastard who stole it. And, sure, you'd be right. But the fact is I don't have a bike right now. Lock up your bike.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#359

Post by suifbwish » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

nawgz wrote: post #336

suifbwish wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cases would be prosecuted if there was evidence to support them. You can’t just punish people without proof. Contrary to popular belief the purpose of the legal system is not to make wronged people feel better.

So you think a crime as endemic as rape which is punished at vanishingly low rates indicates innocence of the perps instead of a fundamentally flawed justice system, starting at the point of evidence collection? Even after seeing those very evidence collectors, the police, flaunt their duties and the law repeatedly? Interesting.

The idea of someone being able to accuse someone else of a crime without evidence should terrify anyone who believes in freedom and democracy. Rape, murder, or any other crime.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#360

Post by joshuamorton » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

suifbwish wrote: post #320

lukasb wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than... Same article notes that between 2-8% of rape complaints are false. Worries about false rape claims are wildly overblown.

The article notes that 2-8% of rape cases are PROVEN false. The real number is definitely higher than that as people do go to prison under wrongful conviction. Bottom line is if you don’t have compelling evidence for a crime you don’t have a case. That’s a good thing as it protects us from unjust punishment most of the time. It’s real sad that victims that can’t prove their case don’t have justice but it’s much more…

It doesn't actually say that.

The article cited[0] is a review of analysis from ~1980 to 2005. If you restrict yourself to only analysis that don't count cases involving alcohol as false reports, the number drops to 2-3%.

The article also notes that false reports are usually different from real reports, important among these facts is that false reports are often attention seeking, and so are examples of what society thinks rape "should" look like (violent, anonymous) as opposed to what it often is (ambiguous and often by someone the victim knows and trusts). As such, the percent of false rape accusations where a particular individual is accused of the crime are likely even lower than this 2-3% number.

> but it’s much more important that the innocent are not wrongfully punished

This depends. It's much less morally cut and dry than you claim.

[0]: https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications/2018-...