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I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

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Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#351
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use a shopping list app[1] that was last updated in January 2011 (so pretty close to 2010) and still works fine. The UI is huge and blurry, but it works. [1] https://f-droid.org/app/caldwell.ben.trolly

Aintcha kinda makin' the opposition's point? That usage case is at a bare-minimum level of dead-simple and minimal-time-in-app usage. Any app with a more involved workflow would effectively be considered obsolete due to being so inferior.

I don't know, I wasn't necessarily making a point, just giving a counter-example. And this simple app is hardly inferior - I use it because I like it.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#352
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH more effort hasn't been put into PWAs (by developers and Google) precisely because these won't work properly in iOS.

What doesn't actually work properly on iOS? Like what are the specific APIs that are missing (because PWA isn't actually a real thing, it's just a collection of APIs), or are buggy? IIRC you can't prompt for "app" "install", and service worker support for background activity is limited (as it should be IMHO). It's funny Apple gets this bad rep, when on the UI front they've actually had some really good APIs much earl…

> Like what are the specific APIs that are missing

Push notifications and background sync for instance.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#353
post #348
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security is a goal, but the purpose is control . For example, this is different than in Microsoft, where the purpose is security, and more control is sometimes a goal, but mostly comes along for the ride because it's needed (at least traditionally, we'll see how much that continues to change for Microsoft). This is obvious in all Apple's decisions. Metal/OpenGL, UI changes, custom CPUs, etc. Apple long ago latched on…

I agree with much of this except for the arbitrary conclusion ‘the purpose is control’. The strategy is control, most definitely. The goal is to deliver desirable end user features, security being an essential one of these. I worked in consumer electronics software development during the early 2000s, when Microsoft was still considered the dominant force. There were many parts of the software stack where no individua…

> My contention is that the lack of a healthy alternative is not due to anything Apple has done.

Apple absolutely has done things to prevent alternatives to their platforms. Not only can you not make hardware that iOS and MacOS run on (and in rare cases where people have, Apple has sued them[1]).

Can you run something other than iOS on an iPhone? Less and less possible, as they lock the phone hardware (and bootloader) down more and more.

Can you run an alternative app store? Nope, totally not allowed. You seem to think that if enough capital was gathered, you could do so, but you can't. It's completely locked out by Apple, and any way you have to circumvent it is either blocked by EULA, contract, or digital and physical controls. Without legal intervention, this isn't happening no matter how much capital you have, because Apple has specifically closed off all other avenues.

So, is it possible to gather enough capital to compete? I'm not sure sure. You'd have to take a page from Apple's playbook and close everything down to control it, and that's far more expensive now than it was a decade ago, and somehow get enough developers and apps and users in a marketplace that doesn't have anything in it to start. And you have to close everything down to outsiders because otherwise Apple will just support whatever your standards are while not allowing you to interoperate with theirs (look at the history iMessage and XMPP, and why Google eventually had to copy Apple's tactic of a closed IM system).

I think it's important to note that this is, at it's essence, anti-competitive behavior. Apple leverages their control over their system to provide benefit to their users, but they do this in a way that denies competition at all but the highest level, even when working at the lowest level. Again, iMessage is a good example of this. You have to buy into the entire Apple platform, from hardware to OS to App Store and control to be able to send messages across that system, and only to other iPhone/MacOS users, because Apple refuses to develop or provide an API to utilize the system from any non Apple device, while at the same time automatically making SMS messages use the system for iPhone to iPhone communication, forcing their users to use it. Is it better than SMS? Yes. Does Apple give it extra capabilities that other systems can't compete with? Also yes. How is this different than Internet Explorer on Windows back in the day?

The bottom line is that Apple's behavior is anti-competitive (in the true sense of the word, whether or not it meets with the antitrust definition in all cases). They use their control of different levels of the platform to stifle competition on other levels. No piece of their platform can be exchanged for another, so there's absolutely no competition at individual levels, only on the platform as a whole.

I want to be clear here, currently it's not Apple vs Android, it's Apple vs everyone and everything else. There's plenty of Android hardware I can take and load AOSP, or LineageOS, or even a Linux based OS. I can take any of those OS's and run them on lots of different hardware (the limiting factor is what people have bothered to port, not what has been restricted). Calling for enough capital to support another walled garden that can compete on the platform level with Apple in the same manner is not only not useful, it's actively harmful to competition overall as they are only able to compete at the platform level.

I want to make one last note. Have you considered that the reason Apple provides a great product and service isn't because they've leveraged their profit from anti-competitive behaviors to their own benefit, to make it even harder to compete with them? What if instead of a couple hundred billion in cash reserves held at Apple, it was partially spread around to various competing companies in the different segments the platform covers over the last decade? A valid third contender maybe? I don't know, but I have a hard time believing that Apple's been the most efficient steward of all that capital, nor that preventing competition leads to a better situation in the end.

1: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2534792/apple-sues-mac...

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#354
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with much of this except for the arbitrary conclusion ‘the purpose is control’. The strategy is control, most definitely. The goal is to deliver desirable end user features, security being an essential one of these. I worked in consumer electronics software development during the early 2000s, when Microsoft was still considered the dominant force. There were many parts of the software stack where no individua…

> My contention is that the lack of a healthy alternative is not due to anything Apple has done. Apple absolutely has done things to prevent alternatives to their platforms. Not only can you not make hardware that iOS and MacOS run on (and in rare cases where people have, Apple has sued them[1]). Can you run something other than iOS on an iPhone? Less and less possible, as they lock the phone hardware (and bootloader…

Preventing people using your software on other hardware is not anti-competitive.

It doesn’t do anything to prevent others from developing their own hardware or software.

It’s not as if Apple has a monopoly on good operating systems or developers. Apple’s software isn’t magic.

It’s just well designed and managed relative to the competition. There is no reason it can’t be bettered, except that nobody is trying.

As far as the ‘at every level you can’t substitute other components’ definition of ‘anti-competitive’. That doesn’t work. Every company is like that. The only things which aren’t are certain open source licenses.

At any point where you want substitutable components, one must have agreed interfaces.

As I said earlier, the competitors failed in the early 2000’s because the process of agreeing on interfaces was hopelessly political. At that time the prevailing wisdom amongst VC’s was ‘there’s no money in hardware’.

The only way around that is for competitors (or open source contributors) to establish a truly open platform that commoditizes Apple’s core asset, and then for them all to realize it isn’t in their interest for anyone to seize control of it. That, or someone to just outdo Apple with low end disruption.

I’d like to think that this is what Google will do with Fuchsia, but anyone else can do it.

I actually agree with you that it would be good to have competition at levels other than the platform.

I believe that over a time it’s possible that such an ecosystem could be better for consumers than Apple’s ecosystem.

I do not believe that you can create such an ecosystem by forcing Apple to open certain arbitrarily selected parts of their system.

If anything, I think this would prevent the emergence of a new model indefinitely.

I also don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that it would be better - only that it is a possibility.

As for the cash reserves. Those look quite wise in the present situation. At Apple’s scale, geopolitical risk is real. China as a last resort in the trade war with Trump could easily make it impossible for them to continue to work there. Trump could do the same.

$200B seems like a reasonable hedge against needing to rebuild their supply chains without Chinese cooperation.

It’s also just a concentration of wealth.

Look at all the other players with concentrated wealth who could just as easily be funding a competitor, and actually have a business interest in doing so.

If your argument is that Apple should be funding its competitors, surely that same argument should apply to anyone with enough money.

VC funds, Hedge Funds, Microsoft, Amazon, etc.

The part we agree on is that someone should be funding serious competition against Apple.

There is plenty of capital outside of Apple which could be doing this.

The reason it hasn’t been doing so is that there have been much quicker and easier ways to make money. Advertising engines, Ride share services, Office building scams, etc.

Any way you look at it, building a giant company slowly over decades is a bad way to make money compared to a quick investment in a Unicorn which never even becomes profitable.

That’s what we should be addressing.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#355
post #349
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it’s true that users can tell the difference between Apps and Websites? That’s the question you replied to without answering before.

Yes, I think they can tell the difference, but I don’t think that they’re somehow in an unguarded / safer frame of mind in apps, especially with how iOS will immediately transfer you to native apps. It’s an extraordinary claim by Apple that would need extraordinary evidence before I believed it.

It’s a ordinary claim, completely supported by the often quoted point that people are much more willing to spend money on iOS than Android or the web.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#356

I mean, there’s a point to be made about how much monopoly power Apple holds, and it’s now clear these questions weren’t asked until now because lawmakers were really sweet on the maker of their shiny iPhone - but this letter ain’t it. The author is grovelling to the point of it being honestly pitiful. The amount of derogatory references to the web and Android also make it really hard for me not to question the motiv…

I'd be really interested to hear this podcast episode if anyone knows where to find it.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#358
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't understand those. I paid god damn 1200 euro for this phone. Why am I seeing ads for shitty apps?

Because as someone paying 1200 euro for a piece of hardware that you don't control, you deserve to be treated like someone not in control. At least they are not actively blackmailing you (yet).

This comment is written in a very aggressive way, but if you read it from another angle, the point still stands. My family buys Apple _because_ that way they lose control over the device. They trust that Apple will control those devices better than they would, it's one less thing to think about.

The ads parent is seeing are not actually for shitty apps (as long as Apple does a decent job in app curation). They are part of the customer delight strategy, by making customers think "Cool, I didn't know my phone could be used for that".

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#359
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My contention is that the lack of a healthy alternative is not due to anything Apple has done. Apple absolutely has done things to prevent alternatives to their platforms. Not only can you not make hardware that iOS and MacOS run on (and in rare cases where people have, Apple has sued them[1]). Can you run something other than iOS on an iPhone? Less and less possible, as they lock the phone hardware (and bootloader…

Preventing people using your software on other hardware is not anti-competitive. It doesn’t do anything to prevent others from developing their own hardware or software. It’s not as if Apple has a monopoly on good operating systems or developers. Apple’s software isn’t magic. It’s just well designed and managed relative to the competition. There is no reason it can’t be bettered, except that nobody is trying. As far…

> Preventing people using your software on other hardware is not anti-competitive. ... It doesn’t do anything to prevent others from developing their own hardware or software.

Actually, since they also provide the hardware, in the truest sense of the word, it is. They are preventing alternative hardware for their software (they've sued over this), and preventing alternative software on their hardware. No competition is allowed in these areas, to compete you have to replace both.

If you then consider that they lock down what apps can run on their software, that extends the link to software able to run on the device. That means to actually compete on an App level with an Apple app on iOS, you need to not just write a better app, but provide an OS of comparable quality and hardware of comparable quality means they have artificially prevented competition at those levels, since there's no reason that they have to be linked. It provides some small benefits, but there's a large difference between not supporting their OS on other hardware and actively preventing it from running on it, and not providing any softawre except their own for their hardware, and locking it down so no other software will boot. That difference is why those actions are anti-competitive.

> I do not believe that you can create such an ecosystem by forcing Apple to open certain arbitrarily selected parts of their system.

And yet the only reason we don't have that competition is because Apple has closed certain non-arbitrary selected parts of their system/platform. I'm not sure why preventing them from closing those to competition wouldn't help spur more competition in them.

> If anything, I think this would prevent the emergence of a new model indefinitely.

I'm not even sure "model" means in this context. What do you suspect preventing arbitrary removal of competition, which is what Apple does, would somehow prevent a new model?

> $200B seems like a reasonable hedge against needing to rebuild their supply chains without Chinese cooperation.

Having a few full years worth of profit stacked away so they can replicate their entire manufacturing infrastructure needs of a nation that specializes in manufacturing is ridiculous. The comparison to Japanese Zaibatsu was apt before, but you're actually saying it's a good idea if some conditions are met here. Those are known to have outsize negative effects on economies.

> If your argument is that Apple should be funding its competitors

No, my argument is that they have too much control over their platform, with allows them to be anti-competitive. This makes them more money, but at the expense of their users (who do not benefit from that competition), and most likely some ceompetitors, unless you believe Apple would still provide a much better solution, in which case it's just he users that win.

> The part we agree on is that someone should be funding serious competition against Apple.

The fact that you think VC is the answer is part of the problem. Right now VC is the answer, because it's almost impossible for anyone to compete without huge amounts of money, but that's because of Apple's arbitrary barriers to compete.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#360

I mean, there’s a point to be made about how much monopoly power Apple holds, and it’s now clear these questions weren’t asked until now because lawmakers were really sweet on the maker of their shiny iPhone - but this letter ain’t it. The author is grovelling to the point of it being honestly pitiful. The amount of derogatory references to the web and Android also make it really hard for me not to question the motiv…

>There was a podcast recently wherein someone who sold to Apple (I’m sorry I can’t remember who it was, will try to dig it out and update) ....

Did you find this? I would be curious to listen

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