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I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

judiciary.house.gov

341–350 of 369 posts

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#341
post #294
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people know the difference between websites and apps.

Are there actually differences between websites and apps? It's just some code you got off the internet and run on your phone

Two differences seem relevant here. Apps are reviewed by Apple, and are only able to use certain payment mechanisms.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#342

Wow. I am the author of this email. I have no idea how it resurfaced after 5 years, I was only made aware of this when a friend emailed me the HN link. The sad thing is it was not just my company which was targeted, but Apple removed this entire product category. We never knew the real reason why, or if it was bigger than just a random app reviewer trying to apply Apple policy, until May 2019. That's when Bloomberg i…

Very sad to read this, but also an important lesson to every entrepreneur :(

The answer you never got from Apple was actually already in your own E-Mail all along.

Pay-Per-Install Ads will be a $118 BILLION industry by 2022. [1]

While you've missed out on millions of dollars, Apple sure saw this coming (Facebook probably was having quite a lot of success with it at the time?) and wanted those billions for themselves.

Protecting the user experience IS important to Apple, too, of course.., and it will always be the story they tell on the outside, but Craig, Phil or whoever was responsible for the AppStore at the time will have given a very different answer to Tim

[1] https://www.appsflyer.com/blog/app-install-ad-spend/

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#343
post #2

What is the context for this being hosted at house.gov? I didn't follow the hearings THAT closely. Was this particular letter discussed?

The hearings the other day were just one part of the subcommittees anti-trust investigation. This constitutes the evidence gathering/discovery part of the investigation.

How did the House find this email? Did one of the recipients leak if to the committee, or did Apple have to deliver all emails of this type?

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#344
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me if this is a stupid question but if you’re unable to remove apps from the store how will you handle blatant issues of spam or, worse, viruses?

Current plan is to support opt-in moderation. Users can subscribe to banlists or curated lists (which could be machine generated) which filter content. If a user doesn't like their moderation/filter, they can swap in a different one or disable it altogether.

Wow interesting idea. I am probably way behind you on the thought process, but my first thought is: I wonder if you are just shifting the meta game and adding an extra step for those wishing to push malware etc. They would need to become list curators and promote some percent of legitimately good apps while also pushing their bad apps.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#345

Wow. I am the author of this email. I have no idea how it resurfaced after 5 years, I was only made aware of this when a friend emailed me the HN link. The sad thing is it was not just my company which was targeted, but Apple removed this entire product category. We never knew the real reason why, or if it was bigger than just a random app reviewer trying to apply Apple policy, until May 2019. That's when Bloomberg i…

Do you still use Apple products and/or write software for them?

I still use all Apple products and I am a big fan. Although their policies literally cost me millions of dollars, I am still a big Apple fan. We no longer develop for the App Store and our new company is web only.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello. I read your email to Tim Cook with interest and I sympathize with the plight of your company. But I wish you would treat other platforms with more respect. To be clear, I'm glad you enjoy Apple products and I'm not trying to talk you out of that -- as if that were possible. But I do want you to understand that my experience with them is different than yours. Apple products don't delight me. I've tried them. Ev…

Consider that he tailored his message for the recipient, as most anyone would do. Imagine if you had spent years (maybe you have, I don't know you) building an app and a business for a platform you love only to have it snatched away. Wouldn't it bring out strong emotion and cause you to want to appeal to them in the same way?

This is exactly right. This email was never meant for public consumption, although I am glad it's out now in case it may change things for others. I do love native mobile experiences, and especially iOS. Keep in mind, Android has come a very long way to close the gap in the last 6 years. I may have dismissed other platforms too quickly, but I also believe that I would not have been able to build the products I did without this singular focus / passion. It was an iOS recommendation app, in my opinion the only way to make a great product for that is to be on the native platform.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#347
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just as much on the tech churn treadmill. Really? I doubt you could run an app written for Android in 2010 (2.2 Froyo) today. But a website written in 2010 using HTML, Javascript, and CSS and no plugins will almost always work.

I use a shopping list app[1] that was last updated in January 2011 (so pretty close to 2010) and still works fine. The UI is huge and blurry, but it works. [1] https://f-droid.org/app/caldwell.ben.trolly

Aintcha kinda makin' the opposition's point? That usage case is at a bare-minimum level of dead-simple and minimal-time-in-app usage. Any app with a more involved workflow would effectively be considered obsolete due to being so inferior.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#348
post #76
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think it’s about keeping iDevices safe. However I’m also someone who thinks app recommendation apps are a good thing and should be allowed on the store. I think the author of the PDF is not only trying to provide a valuable service, but is also right in pointing out that there are problems. These things are not mutually exclusive.

Security is a goal, but the purpose is control . For example, this is different than in Microsoft, where the purpose is security, and more control is sometimes a goal, but mostly comes along for the ride because it's needed (at least traditionally, we'll see how much that continues to change for Microsoft). This is obvious in all Apple's decisions. Metal/OpenGL, UI changes, custom CPUs, etc. Apple long ago latched on…

I agree with much of this except for the arbitrary conclusion ‘the purpose is control’.

The strategy is control, most definitely.

The goal is to deliver desirable end user features, security being an essential one of these.

I worked in consumer electronics software development during the early 2000s, when Microsoft was still considered the dominant force.

There were many parts of the software stack where no individual entity had control and standards and features were beholden to consortia and standards bodies which were essentially political bodies, all about capturing leverage over one part of the platform or another.

The result was that the user was simply not in the picture, and obvious ways to improve the user experience just couldn’t be executed because every decision about how to do so was a political battle.

Apple’s strategy of vertical integration allowed them to avoid all of this and simply deliver proprietary features that users wanted.

The problem in this case was not Apple delivering proprietary features.

It was Apple’s competitors failure to cooperate to deliver what consumers wanted.

Android is where it is because it became simply a repeat of that early 2000’s failure, and of course Google was forced to abandon “Open always wins” in favor of progressively trying to take back control.

If we want a more open alternative to Apple’s ecosystem, we need to be honest about why they has been successful, and how the alternatives underperformed.

I think Apple’s continued success is contingent on there being no low end disruption (which is definitely not a given), and would be competitors continuing to fail to create a healthy alternative ecosystem of their own.

My contention is that the lack of a healthy alternative is not due to anything Apple has done.

Apple has been on this upward trajectory for nearly 20 years, and for most of that time they were not dominant.

The problem is that the comparing ecosystems haven’t figured out how to work together to make an alternative yet.

If Apple is failing to allow people to play the games they want, and gaming is an increasingly relevant cultural activity, this is an opportunity for growth outside of Apple’s control.

Just as the music industry and the cellphone industry fell to Apple giving customers what they wanted and what was possible, Apple can fall to a competitor to does understand the value of games.

The arguments about not being able to get people to switch are moot. It’s always true that there are switching costs to overcome.

Competing with Apple would take patience, good management, and a lot of capital being deployed.

There is no shortage of capital looking for a place to invest - there is only a shortage of management talent and imagination.

If we don’t hobble Apple artificially, someone will figure this out, and the whole industry will be better off for it.

Remember Apple’s renaissance began with Steve Jobs saying “We have been thinking that in order for Apple to win, Microsoft has to lose. We need to stop thinking that way.”

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#349
post #340
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think it's true that Apple's decision to ban Microsoft's xCloud is to protect their customers from games that are actually trying to defraud players. If this is deflecting then I guess call me the Great Deflector.

Do you think it’s true that users can tell the difference between Apps and Websites? That’s the question you replied to without answering before.

Yes, I think they can tell the difference, but I don’t think that they’re somehow in an unguarded / safer frame of mind in apps, especially with how iOS will immediately transfer you to native apps. It’s an extraordinary claim by Apple that would need extraordinary evidence before I believed it.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#350
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I fear most here, is companies getting banned because they employ a developer who worked at another company that gets banned. I've heard that either for Apple or Google (I forgot which), any relationship at all to a banned account can get you banned. So an unlucky developer could rapidly become even more unlucky, and infect others with that 'bad luck'.

Indeed, for that reason I will never use any google products for my businesses. The risk of being destroyed overnight and without any possible appeal is just too high.

Curious do you just stick with web apps or just don't do any sort of business that requires it? I was thinking about a career shift into apps or web apps, leaning towards web actually because I do have a little bit of "full stack" experience on simple web applications/databases in the embedded sphere.
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