Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#351

Post by jostmey » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:29 PM UTC

sho wrote: post #315

Here we go again... Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem to explain it on a site like this. Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this tianxia by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny. L…

Using Alabama is a flawed analogy. Hong Kong has always enjoyed greater autonomy than other Chinese cities. A better analogy would be Puerto Rico citizens aggressively protesting their lack of rights electing members to congress in the federal government. Do you think the US would react the same way as China?

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#352

Post by matwood » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

sho wrote: post #315

Here we go again... Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem to explain it on a site like this. Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this tianxia by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny. L…

> wants all these rights others don't have

This is exactly how the United States is setup. Notice how pot is legal in some states and not others? I don't see the National Guard marching on Colorado.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#353

Post by learc83 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

sho wrote: post #315

Here we go again... Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem to explain it on a site like this. Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this tianxia by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny. L…

A better example is Puerto Rico. If they had a referendum that showed a clear desire for independence, the US would almost certainly let them leave.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#354

Post by donohoe » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

Wait. They did ban it. Then they approved it again.

Have they banned it again?

See BoingBoing article from Oct 4th:

  "Apple reverses ban on HKmap.live app tracking Hong Kong protests & police"

https://boingboing.net/2019/10/04/hkmap-live-hong-kong.html

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#355

Post by UIZealot » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

automatoney wrote: post #320

UIZealot wrote: post #270

It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China. It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions i…

I'm not going to argue whether or not anything you've said is untrue, but you're leaving out some pretty important details which puts the protesters in a worse light. First of all, one of the initial demands of the protest was to retract the characterization of one of the earlier protests as a riot. So even peaceful demonstrations have been cracked down on by the government. Even well-organized protests such as the o…

That's the gist of it. Of course I left out a lot of things, and not all of them are in the protesters's favor.

> early on the police were ordering people to disperse even though there was no violence at that time.

But did the police use violence first?

> late in July there were increasing attacks on protesters in which police stood by as people were attacked with poles. It seems that in this case, it was the police that were allowing violence and destruction, not the protesters.

When you treat the police like your enemy, how do you expect them to rush to your help the moment you need it? And seeing that the protesters were more than capable of violence themselves, why would the police rush to help?

> the first bullet even fired in this whole situation was a police officer shooting an 18 year old high school student.

The officer was under attack and fired in self defense, you know that better than I do.

> Peaceful protest is definitely better when possible, but in many cases throughout history it simply has not been feasible.

In a place without law and order, it may not be feasible. In Hong Kong? It's definitely possible.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#356

Post by SubiculumCode » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

Google does it too, but at least you can install from other sources in Android.

But shame on you Google/Apple. Shame on you.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#357

Post by UserIsUnused » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

sho wrote: post #315

Here we go again... Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem to explain it on a site like this. Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this tianxia by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny. L…

It's much different that that, as Alabama isn't a recently acquired former colony of an old empire, that have been enjoying an autonamous status due to that.

The biggest different in metaphor is: -> state/city want something vs -> State/city doesn't want something removed.

The origin of the manifest is due to HK losing some of its autonomy, it was a condition unique to it, it's not someone wanting to be special, it's someone special not wanting to be normal. There is a very huge difference in mental state.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#358

Post by tomp » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #297

And in one fell swoop, Apple has made it effectively impossible to install this app on your phone. There's no realistic workaround. † Apple should never have been capable of making such a drastic decision for all of their customers. It's one thing to make determinations about what products are allowed in your store, but quite another to unilaterally ban software from what is many people's primary computer. We live in…

> And in one fell swoop, Apple has made it effectively impossible to install this app on your phone

You mean years ago?

Not that I support this move by Apple, but ... how is this different from them rejecting any application for any reason? We've had a ton of stories on HN of them doing that (for various different reasons)...

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#359

Post by arbitrary_name » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

jm4 wrote: post #331

journalctl wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how this works. Apple is one of the wealthiest companies in the world, and saying “just don’t spend money there” is a bit reductionist and trivializes the problem of corporations with more power than nation-states. You need to fight fire with fire: governments of the world (especially the US government) need to create laws that restrict and punish this kind of behavior. Otherwise, I sincerely doubt Apple’s…

How does that play out? The US and China would pass contradictory laws and then companies would have to choose which to follow. They will follow the money and we may not like the result.

That we cant use Apple phones? Boo fucking hoo.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#360

Post by Wowfunhappy » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

ru999gol wrote: post #321

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #297

And in one fell swoop, Apple has made it effectively impossible to install this app on your phone. There's no realistic workaround. † Apple should never have been capable of making such a drastic decision for all of their customers. It's one thing to make determinations about what products are allowed in your store, but quite another to unilaterally ban software from what is many people's primary computer. We live in…

In principle code signing is a good idea, this way Apple can ensure an improved security standard over their competition. But the downside is of course that Apple is in control, and like any corporation it will do things with that power that are unethical, immoral, anti-competitive, anti-consumer, etc. to the fullest possible imaginable degree. Its like when you buy a DRM protected piece of content and that company r…

> In principle code signing is a good idea, this way Apple can ensure an improved security standard over their competition.

There is nothing wrong with code signing. There is everything wrong with making Apple the sole arbiter of mandatory code signing. It's the difference between being against locks, and being against someone else owning the keys to your house.

---

> I won't blame Apple, they aren't people [...] I blame people/consumers

No, you can't blame people. It isn't the individual consumer's job to consider the ins and outs of how they may be limiting their free expression in the future. That's not realistic.

Corporations are not robots; Apple is run by people, and specifically people who should be considerably more knowledgable on this subject than the average consumer. They should feel some level of social responsibility.

This will not be the last time Apple ends up in this type of situation. I hope we have the right conversations about them, and I hope they make Apple hurt. Because this was entirely predictable, and entirely of Apple's own making.