Leap: An Online Community for Women • Hacker News Board

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#351

Post by th1nkdifferent » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 7:58 AM UTC

fruzz wrote: post #141

sievebrain wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again! Your goal is not to create an inclusive community. Your goal is to create an exclusive community. Look, if want to create a female only website then go for it. But you have to own your actions. You can't exclude half the population then claim you care about inclusion. That is rank hypocrisy bordering on the delusional - you are doing the exact opposite of what you claim.

So here's the thing. No space is being taken away. A new space is being created. This space is to give a voice to a population who reports, as a group, being silenced and undermined in other spaces by the dominant group. This allows voices to be heard that weren't heard before. That's inclusion. Having those voices stay silent is exclusion.

I don't get it. How are these voices going to be heard outside of the echo chamber of the community? For voices to be heard by the broader population, the echo chamber needs to be open and inclusive.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#352

Post by dang » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

dzhiurgis wrote: post #324

DoreenMichele wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not have a working relationship with him. We worked at the same company, but we never worked together. I was already expecting to leave for unrelated reasons. I have a certificate in GIS. In the 5+ years at that company, he was the only person who knew what GIS was without me having to explain it. It never crossed his mind that I might have IT ambitions or that my technical training might have value for the com…

> He just saw an attractive woman Attractive sexually or intellectually?

Not cool. Please don't.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#353

Post by dang » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 9:34 AM UTC

thenayr wrote: post #6

This is wonderful!! Side note, prepare for HN backlash...neckbeards get really triggered by this stuff.

We've banned this account for violating the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#354

Post by christophilus » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 3:29 PM UTC

probably_wrong wrote: post #23

cbcowans wrote: post #2

Hi! I'm the creator of Leap. Glad to answer questions here.

I'll go straight to the difficult questions: 1. I thought gender-based discrimination was illegal. How is Leap not illegal? 2. One of the main objections of "gentleman's clubs" was that their (male) members had access to important networking contacts, putting women in unequal foot in an unfair way when it came to businesses. Wouldn't Leap be unfair in the same way?

I think one could easily start a website that was for men only-- a widower support system, say-- and no one would complain.

I think you could argue that Leap is somewhat similar to that. It's a support network for a group of people who face a particular challenge and need a safe place to talk.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#355

Post by grasshopperpurp » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

adfm wrote: post #339

grasshopperpurp wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, how does it relate then? What did you add by including it? It's a famous quote, and I remember mentioning it to a college professor when we covered Poe's 'The Black Cat.' I'm all for learning. Please explain.

It's about exclusion. The Marx family were Jews. Men-only clubs (just "clubs" back then) excluded Jews. Groucho's feigning snobbery was self-deprecating, but also allegorical. Walled gardens are for suckers.

Thanks very much for the explanation, and I'm sorry for my initial tone/wrongness.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#356

Post by metaphoracle » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 10:17 PM UTC

konogasa wrote: post #347

metaphoracle wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I accept that there are differences between trans women, but I believe my description covers a strong majority. I don't speak "for" anyone, of course. In my experience as a trans woman in tech and very involved in the MN transgender community for many years, is that your perspective is definitely not shared by the majority. I know my argument is just as anecdotal as yours, but I only can recall a couple trans wome…

>> Please don't speak for the "majority" of us without backing it up with polling data at minimum. I'm not speaking for the majority of trans women. I'm speaking of them. So when I say that "my description covers a strong majority of trans women" I mean that the traits I list describe a majority of trans women, in my experience and in my opinion. I don't mean that the trans women I describe in this way would agree wi…

>> I'm not speaking for the majority of trans women. I'm speaking of them.

Again anecdotally.

>> I mean that the traits I list describe a majority of trans women, in my experience and in my opinion.

Well, here is where the wheels fall off. Prescribing negative male traits to the majority of trans women is beyond the pale. I disagree and find the connotation offensive and transphobic.

>> While there is still need for gendered spaces? We belong in our own spaces.

Again, I disagree, for reasons: 1. Size: The trans population is small, like very small compared to almost all other groups. It would be a greater burden on society to request that all spaces now accommodate unique and private spaces for trans folk, and extrapolated, a different space for flavor of trans. 2. Exclusion and Identity Erasure: Many trans folk (myself included) identify with one of the two binary genders. It is an affront and an erasure of our identities to segregate us from general society. I for one am not looking to wear my trans scarlet letter with pride, thanks.

Now, that is not to say that trans folk should not have access to our own support networks and industry groups. But to claim that we should stay out of the majority groups because we have a different past is offensive, as is the connotation that trans women make cis women uncomfortable. As a passing trans woman, I have been asked to leave trans groups because my "privilege" makes others uncomfortable. In this case, where do I belong? Should I make new industry groups for passing trans women with mixed Irish/German/Greek heritage that enjoy swing dancing and traditional music? Should cis women segregate by ethnicity or by tomboy-ness?

Intersectionality does not imply segregation. Trans women are women, full stop, and should have access to the same groups as cis women.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#357

Post by badwulf » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:18 AM UTC

turinapple wrote: post #54

I'm a woman that's worked in tech since 2011... at times the discrimination and treatment I've faced has made me want to quit the industry all together. But every time I reached that point I thought - no, I'm not the one who should have to leave, it's the people -- usually men -- who have not shown empathy, kindness or compassion. The ones who have bullied me and harassed me and made inappropriate comments or advance…

I'm a guy in tech(not that it matters), do you think that harassment and bullying is a problem unique to women? Do you think that men don't have issues? Do you think that women don't treat each other like crap sometimes?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#358

Post by whitemale » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:33 AM UTC

fruzz wrote: post #80

turinapple wrote: post #54

I'm a woman that's worked in tech since 2011... at times the discrimination and treatment I've faced has made me want to quit the industry all together. But every time I reached that point I thought - no, I'm not the one who should have to leave, it's the people -- usually men -- who have not shown empathy, kindness or compassion. The ones who have bullied me and harassed me and made inappropriate comments or advance…

I really wish your experience was unique. A colleague was groped. She didn't report it. It would have likely diminished her future prospects. A friend was asked out on dates, unsolicited, multiple times by coworkers. She just had to laugh it off. Women at a previous employment reported not being taken as seriously as men in meetings, and being passed over for promotions in favour of less qualified men. A friend repor…

> A colleague was groped. She didn't report it.

What do you think should happen to people who grope other people?

> A friend was asked out on dates, unsolicited, multiple times by coworkers.

What's the alternative? How in your world are people supposed to date?

> In all cases, what can you do to challenge these things without being seen as "the crazy one", "too sensitive", "party pooper", or whatever?

I'm not implying that you are any of those things. Did you ever consider the possibility that maybe you are too sensitive?

If you interact with a diverse group of people, they will do and say things that will offend you, such is life, the only way to avoid it is to ensure that you only interact with likeminded people. Expecting everyone to adhere to your values is tyranny.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#359

Post by solidsnack9000 » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 11:59 PM UTC

Iepoiel wrote: post #242

DoreenMichele wrote: post #126

I have seen research that women who go to all female colleges tend to do better career-wise. So I don't think the idea of a female enclave as a means to inoculate women against problematic social norms is without merit. If you have never done this before, let me suggest that if you like the culture it currently has, you need to be really leery of making significant changes, such as deciding you will welcome men at so…

Single-sex schools is generally perceived to give better results in grades and careers, with research to back it up. They are also perceived to give worse citizens in term of empathy and understanding. This theory is notoriously used by the military in many nations. By strengthening the in-group feeling you gain several traits such as increased confidence and feeling of belonging, and you increase tensions against th…

They are also perceived to give worse citizens in term of empathy and understanding.

Where is the research on that?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#360

Post by solidsnack9000 » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 12:14 AM UTC

fruzz wrote: post #169

fortythirteen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: not in any way attempting to diminish your experience. Only adding my own, to broaden the conversation. It can be a similar experience for men (although it's definitely not something talked about). I've had a female coworker walk up behind me repeatedly and give me unsolicited back rubs and ask me if I wanted to go to an empty office. I've been flirted with and hit on repeatedly. I've had a group of women…

Those experiences are awful. I do not dispute that there are male victims, including in the workplace. I absolutely agree that "People shouldn't do this to other People". That said, women as a group are disproportionately on the receiving end of improper workplace behaviour overwhelmingly perpetrated by men. And you can't address that dynamic without first acknowledging that it exists and putting words to it. And so,…

What kind of threshold has to be crossed before we recognize women acting as a group?

General principles of human rights broadly forbid notions of collective guilt and collective punishment: one formulation is that everyone is entitled to be treated as an individual before the law. This doesn't mean one can't sue a company or nation; but men don't act as a group in the sense of having a steering committee with clearly articulated policies on gender politics.