Leap: An Online Community for Women • Hacker News Board

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#241

Post by dang » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

louisswiss wrote: post #235

dang wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're being fair to the community here. It's true that such comments exist, and so do many other kinds. Many users share personal experiences. Many express vulnerability. Self-doubt, questions, and comments expanding on others' ideas are highly represented here, and we value them tremendously. I puzzled for years over why people would say things like "90%+ of all comments" that are so obviously (to me)…

A cynic might say that the content of your comment provides reason to disagree with the previous poster, whereas the comment itself could also be a reason to agree with them. On a more serious note, I wonder whether it has something to do with the fact that on HN it is frowned upon to express agreement in comment form (that's what upvotes are for), however when disagreeing/expressing disapproval, it is accepted pract…

It isn't frowned upon at all! Substantive comments are best, whether agreeing or disagreeing. But among unsubstantive comments, it's the negative ones that we frown upon, not the positive ones. Here's what pg wrote years ago:

Empty comments can be ok if they're positive. There's nothing wrong with submitting a comment saying just "Thanks." What we especially discourage are comments that are empty and negative—comments that are mere name-calling.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#242

Post by Iepoiel » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #126

I have seen research that women who go to all female colleges tend to do better career-wise. So I don't think the idea of a female enclave as a means to inoculate women against problematic social norms is without merit. If you have never done this before, let me suggest that if you like the culture it currently has, you need to be really leery of making significant changes, such as deciding you will welcome men at so…

Single-sex schools is generally perceived to give better results in grades and careers, with research to back it up. They are also perceived to give worse citizens in term of empathy and understanding.

This theory is notoriously used by the military in many nations. By strengthening the in-group feeling you gain several traits such as increased confidence and feeling of belonging, and you increase tensions against the out-group which during a war is perceived as useful.

Benefits and drawbacks, one which many nations has gone with banning the practice of single sex education. I don't disagree with it and I find the science behind it to be rather robust.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#243

Post by studio_monolith » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #211

ashelmire wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There hasn't really been an online forum where I felt safe to have these conversations until now. Now that Leap is here I have other people who get me who I can talk to about the stuff that is bugging me." If this wasn't written by a copywriter I'll eat my hat.

Would you please stop? She already said she didn't work for them. Your question was a borderline personal attack in the first place, but I didn't chide you for it, even though this topic makes the downside of such an attack much worse than in a typical thread. Actually I did chide you for it, but then deleted the post because I remembered how sensitive HN users often are to booster comments posted by new accounts. I'…

It's actually the perfect situation to challenge a new user; their post reads as an ad.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#244

Post by beat » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #227

beat wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't Lake Wobegon. Not all the children are above average. You can cut this cake a different way, too... race. White people are overrepresented (or non-whites are underrepresented) in IT, and in high-status jobs. And the male/female representation ratios are different, as well. Consider historic example, as well. Right now, women are significantly underrepresented as CEOs and senators. But a century ago, there…

> Not all the children are above average. They don't have to be. Only the majority, and I have a hard time believing that the majority of software engineers and leaders are of average capability or worse. I'm open to data to the contrary, however. > You can cut this cake a different way, too... race. White people are overrepresented (or non-whites are underrepresented) in IT, and in high-status jobs. Not sure what yo…

Pointing out the existence of sexism and racism does not require "elaborate conspiracy theories".

As for my point, it's that systematic bias against people by race looks remarkably similar to systematic bias against people by gender. That suggests a common cause, especially when one group (white men) is the beneficiary of both. Hence Occam's Razor. A single dominant group shutting out everyone who doesn't match the dominant traits is a simpler explanation than coming up with two entirely separate causes for the same observation.

As for historical disparaties... I know you didn't make claims about disparities a century ago. The historic example was an argument against the case you made that somehow, women are genetically predisposed to avoid certain career paths.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#245

Post by verylittlemeat » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #206

Honest question, does HN feel unwelcoming or uncomfortable for women? In particular: “I’ve found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly” do female HN users identify this with HN? Not saying Leap shouldn’t exist or anything, I’m just wondering if HN has these particular issues that I haven’t personally recognised.

I'm not a woman so I'm not going to try and address what women do or don't feel about HN but I just want to say:

>“I’ve found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly”

How many people can find a group of people IN GENERAL (online/offline/anywhere) that doesn't rapidly devolve into power/politics/passive & active aggressive behavior? Go spend some time on a forum like metafilter where you have to pay $5 to comment and the moderators aggressively prune any opinion that doesn't tow a nominal progressive line. Even with all of that you end up with some of the most breathtakingly toxic behavior I've seen on any forum.

In my opinion Leap is a wonderful innovation. It will help lots of people realize being an asshole does not know gender.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#246

Post by dang » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

studio_monolith wrote: post #240

fruzz wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating an online space that empower women, like Leap, is one example of a solution.

Yeah I'm sure it won't lead to any false accusations or men being fired because of mob mentality. Also your point about women being asked on dates is laughable.

We've banned this account for trolling. Please don't create accounts to break the site guidelines with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#247

Post by metaphoracle » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 10:02 PM UTC

_zachs wrote: post #183

fvdessen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The measurable advantage men have in the tech community What is that advantage and how is it measured ?

Note the lack of specifics. It's much easier to hold a viewpoint that can't be refuted if it's not measurable in the first place.

What specifics are you seeking? Have you read any of the linked articles in this thread? Or performed a single google search?

-Pay Gap: https://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gen...

-Employment Gap: https://www.forbes.com/sites/christinawallace/2016/10/20/gir...

-Leadership Gap: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-02/why-so-fe...

-Visibility Gap: https://hbr.org/2016/09/to-succeed-in-tech-women-need-more-v...

-Sexism/Hostile Workplaces: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-...

-Hiring Discrimination: https://www.aauw.org/2015/06/11/john-or-jennifer/

-General Discrimination: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/11/20/the-tech-indus...

And just in case you missed it the last time: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#248

Post by brucephillips » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 10:02 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #152

fvdessen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The measurable advantage men have in the tech community What is that advantage and how is it measured ?

Measurement is easy. Just look around you. The majority of people working in tech are men. An even larger majority of its leadership is men. Why is this? There are only two possible causes that I can see - genetic, or cultural. The genetic argument is basically that men are, by nature, better at being programmers and leaders than women - that women are inferior. The cultural argument is that there is a social advanta…

There's a third, which is that women are, on average, less interested in being programmers.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#249

Post by brucephillips » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

fvdessen wrote: post #174

beat wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measurement is easy. Just look around you. The majority of people working in tech are men. An even larger majority of its leadership is men. Why is this? There are only two possible causes that I can see - genetic, or cultural. The genetic argument is basically that men are, by nature, better at being programmers and leaders than women - that women are inferior. The cultural argument is that there is a social advanta…

Could it be that the cultural problem is the low social status of IT Work ?

How does IT work have low social status?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#250

Post by louisswiss » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #241

louisswiss wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cynic might say that the content of your comment provides reason to disagree with the previous poster, whereas the comment itself could also be a reason to agree with them. On a more serious note, I wonder whether it has something to do with the fact that on HN it is frowned upon to express agreement in comment form (that's what upvotes are for), however when disagreeing/expressing disapproval, it is accepted pract…

It isn't frowned upon at all! Substantive comments are best, whether agreeing or disagreeing. But among unsubstantive comments, it's the negative ones that we frown upon, not the positive ones. Here's what pg wrote years ago: Empty comments can be ok if they're positive. There's nothing wrong with submitting a comment saying just "Thanks." What we especially discourage are comments that are empty and negative—comment…

Thanks for taking the time to respond and clear that up for me.

I joined HN fairly late (just a few years ago) and my subjective experience of the rules (as they are lived) is that a 'thanks' comment is almost invariably countered with a snarky 'that is what the upvote button is for' response.

For what it's worth, the vast majority of my experiences here on HN have been positive, and I greatly appreciate how often someone with significant domain knowledge turns up and replies to me in a way that seriously challenges beliefs which I had previously taken to be fact.