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Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

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Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#351
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually the people who take a crap job like that simply don't spend that much time on intellectual pursuits to begin with. Well that's definitely not elitist...

You're right, it's most certainly not! I wish someone could tell us how it is "elitist" to point out that some people are "smart" and some aren't. Not every person can be nor desires to be an engineer/surgeon/attorney and that's totally okay, the world needs big dumb jocks too.

>You're right, it's most certainly not! I wish someone could tell us how it is "elitist" to point out that some people are "smart" and some aren't.

Well, for one it's a sign of a stupid person (who's also not paying attention) to believe that people working at lowly jobs aren't (or worse can't) be intelligent or follow intellectual pursuits.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#352

What's wrong with us workers? Do you think the Apple executes have some secret message board where they ask questions like: "Is it unethical for us to sell iPhones for $800 when they only cost $20 to produce?" Capitalism is what it is, you play the game and shouldn't feel bad the (few!) times you win.

> Is it unethical for us to sell iPhones for $800 when they only cost $20 to produce? If you're going to make an argument, why make a strawman? My $1000 iPhone 7+ costs roughly $220 in materials. [1] Apple's stated gross margins are 39%, and last quarter was a net profit of $17.9b on revenue of $78.4b [2], so that's 22% net profit. So overheads are somewhere around 17%. To sum up where your $1000 on an iPhone goes: $…

The point of his comment had nothing to do with the actual cost of an iPhone. It was just to make a point that iPhones as an example make a strong profit margin.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#353
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems the greater question is, "What is the employer paying for?" Economic theory suggests an employer pays for value created. After all, if an employee is generating less economic value than they're consuming, it makes sense to fire that person. But that's only true in a fantasy world where you can perfectly measure and compensate that kind of performance, like performing physics equations without air resistance…

> It seems the greater question is, "What is the employer paying for?" I would argue that in the US, at least in the CS/IT industry, the answer to this has been perverted into "all work you can be coerced into producing." Viz lack of overtime, non-competes, right to all work product, non-set-hours, etc It's almost like capital owners subconsciously realized that technology was likely to be the last place where skille…

non-competes aren't universal in the US at least. that said I am moving to a place where non competes DO exist (moving for grad school) and so I would much appreciate any advice and/or horror stories regarding how to manage them.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#354
post #18
post #2

They haven't just automated the job - they've deliberately inserted errors to make it look like a human made them. That's a big step over the line into fraudulent behavior.

But it still contains less errors than if he had done it manually, as they think he does.

Intent matters (in ethical considerations, anyway). Intentionally making mistakes to conceal your automation is on a completely different level than unintentional mistakes made when doing the work (either manually or through automation).

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#355
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be interested in what this commentator on economics had to say about piecework: "Some workmen, indeed, when they can earn in four days what will maintain them through the week, will be idle the other three. This, however, is by no means the case with the greater part. Workmen, on the contrary, when they are liberally paid by the piece, are very apt to overwork themselves, and to ruin their health and consti…

It's an interesting argument, but is it based on empirical evidence, or merely supposition? (More recently, you can observe a seeming correlation between the decline in hours worked and the increase in labor productivity in the US in the 20th century--and I think in the rest of the developed world--but I don't know if this is causal or not.)

Smith specifically cites a reference, Remuzzini, in the passage.

I've the hardcopy version by Edwin Cannan with his notes, that doesn't specifically indicate additional sources, and I'm not aware of any further scholarship on this.

If you read Smith, he generally writes from a mix of scholarship and experience, though generally doesn't cite his sources with the rigour you'd expect from a current academic text. That's somewhat disappointing. He does occasionally go well wide the mark -- his accounts of barter and recommendations to the American colonies to avoid industrialisation are among his more telling blunders. I recommend him as a) informative, b) highly misrepresented (most particularly by the Mont Pelerin / free-market fundamentalist / libertarian camp), and c) imperfect but useful.

Generally, Smith is a bit of a cipher: he ordered his unpublished correspondence and notes burned on his death, and there are relatively few biographies of him.

The one of which I'm aware that was near-contemporary, by Dugald Stewart written a few years after Smith's death, I've marked up and published as PDF and ePub, links available here:

https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/lhw2eq4qmnnwxijlcrfyba

Markdown: http://pastebin.com/LdKXpHdR

PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Q6JFf-mAJPY0tfaXlQWUNwLWc...

ePub: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Q6JFf-mAJPdXgwcm1NbDhQdEE...

There's a great deal of highly ideological treatment of Smith, of course. I try to avoid that where possible.

Edwin Cannan and Francis Wrigley Hirst (ideological: free-market advocate) wrote biographies in the late 19th / early 20th century. I've not read them.

Emma Rothschild (of the famed banking family) has written some of the more sensible Smith scholarship I've seen: http://www.worldcat.org/title/economic-sentiments-adam-smith...

There's also a Cambridge Companion on Smith I suspect is worth looking at: http://www.worldcat.org/title/cambridge-companion-to-adam-sm...

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#356
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True story (radically abbreviated and redacted): One group, group A writes crap code. Another group, group B is meticulous and careful, constantly refactoring, using good testing and code review practices, taking care to design their software with forethought before ever committing code. Group A's code is in a constant state of breakage. Group B's code always just works. On the other hand, Group A is extremely vocal.…

I feel that the manager of Team B has some responsibility in this story

You'd think so but (bad) managers never take the blame or responsibility for something unless it succeeds. That's been my experience at least.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#357

Is capitalism ethical though? Isn't every employee an exploited person? “What is the robbing of a bank compared to the founding of a bank?” - Bertolt Brecht

Tu quoque isn't a valid argument. More importantly it implies you actually do think his behaviour is unethical.

It's basically the "robbing a thief" argument - it's not stealing, because the loot wasn't theirs in the first place.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that's not true – in the UK at least, any work created during a course of employment belongs to the employer. There's nothing in the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act that explicitly defines what 'course of employment' means but a court would certainly consider it valid were the works produced on company time using company equipment.

That's not true in the US either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire

Software is specifically exempted from that.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I spend half my day browsing Reddit on salary, but my work gets done and no one has ever said anything to me about it. And if they did, I'd probably just quit and get a job for a sane company.

I wouldn't say I thing about your browsing, but I would give you more work :)

What's the difference between jail and work?

In jail you're rewarded with time off for good behaviour.

At work you're rewarded with more work.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, this guy went out of his way to lie and insert extra bugs in his code to make it appear like manual labor. Second, this guy is doing it all the time I don't see the difference. I've known people who intentionally work slowly or pretend to do manual labor when they've already got a process for automating it. They'll just goof around for a while and then run the automation. Whether you're introducing bugs to f…

> I don't see the difference. Really now? Are you sure it's not a case of you not wanting to see the difference? > Whether you're introducing bugs to fix yourself or pretending to work - the effect is the same. Being at work and not working is quite a far cry from actively lying that you did things that you didn't do, or from inserting defects in your code so that they pay you to remove them. It's at least honest to…

“What kind of world do you live in where intentions and honesty don't matter, and only "effects" do?”

The world where, doing what this guy did, ignoring the intentional errors part, he would be just as likely to be fired as he would be to be rewarded for automating the process. In such a world, he is more ethically obligated to feed his family than he is to turn over a tool that would increase profits for a company that would terminate him.

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