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Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

arstechnica.com

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Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#341

Post by hunson_abadeer »

rwmj wrote: post #46

There's a BBC documentary from last year which I just watched: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0fpz9zw and honestly a lot of it seems quite amateur hour. One of the steering motors was fitted backwards. When they discovered this, at the bottom of the ocean and a few hundred feet from Titanic, the solution they used was to hold the gamepad at right angles to compensate. That time they proceeded with the tour and mad…

Maybe so, but it's easy to say this after the fact. When kludges like this work, we admire "scrappy" and "ingenious" engineers who are finding ways to launch rockets or build submarines or medical devices or whatever for fraction the price.

It's only when it blows up that it turns from "ingenuity" into "amateur hour".

People who participated in this knew the risks. They fucked up. None of us would have designed a better submarine, and I'd wager we're not all that qualified to tell a crappy design from a good one, except - once again - after the fact.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#342

Post by PragmaticPulp »

blobbers wrote: post #309

This is a shockingly simple product to make "self driving". Why on earth do they have any controller, aside from some sort of emergency up button. Furthermore, what the hell is the emergency plan??? This is going to cost taxpayers millions of dollars. The CEO who should be held criminally liable is inside the sub. I really, really hope they're found alive so that he can be held to account for this. With regard to the…

> This is a shockingly simple product to make "self driving".

No, it’s quite an engineering challenge to develop any robust self driving code, especially in safety critical applications.

Having human controls would still be necessary as a backup even if they did have autopilot.

Some of these armchair engineering comments about this project are incredibly optimistic or pessimistic.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#343

Post by coffeebeqn »

flir wrote: post #230
randac wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also using close to $1m in fuel per trip (according to the CEO), not that it changes your point

Not doubting you, but how is that possible? (A quick, unverified Google throws back "A standard Panamax containership has operational costs of about $9 million per year")

Also a large private jet uses about 540 gallons of fuel per hour. That’s very roughly $5400/h in air

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#344

Post by coffeebeqn »

pests wrote: post #248
randac wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also using close to $1m in fuel per trip (according to the CEO), not that it changes your point

I really don't see how that is possible.

Maybe they fill it up with solid gold to sink and then drop it all into the ocean as they ascend

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#345

Post by taldo »

afavour wrote: post #313
analog31 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what actually amazes me. The reliability of something like an airplane, bus, or train, is held to extremely high engineering standards. There are even safety rules for bicycles. But you're allowed to take people for rides in a submarines with barely any oversight.

What international safety standards apply to bicycles? Seems to me that if you’re way out in international waters it’s not too surprising that no one is going to step in to stop you doing something this stupid. There’s not much jurisdiction.

ISO 4210 comes to mind. There's also a handful of ASTM standards, F2043 for categories based on intended usage, and others specifying the testing requirements for frames etc. Not sure if legally required, but if my memory doesn't fail, all European-branded bikes I've seen are tested by those standards and categorized (e.g. cat 5 for downhill mountain bikes)

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#346

Post by liamwire »

ekianjo wrote: post #332
medellin wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what happens when you take the move fast and break things culture to anything where people die when things break. Really just sad and so stupid.

> This is what happens when you take the move fast and break things culture Or then you take things slow and you end up like NASA who has not launched any new rocket in years. Is that better?

In regards to human life, unambiguously yes.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#347

Post by mmkos »

AHOHA wrote: post #327

What’s wrong with Logitech controller? It’s good and reliable, I use it in the drone platform I built (in addition to xbox/ps4/ps5 controllers) and we flew the drone from the other half of this planet, this is like saying “oh your tank/car/whatever steering wheel or this component is only $150 so it’s bad!!”, that’s the idea of engineering, find/make reliable pieces at an affordable price, guess that contractor if th…

I think you're missing the point. When making these design decisions, you have to ask 'what can go wrong, and what is the implication of that?'. In your example, you can replace the controller with ease if it breaks, but you can't do that when you are underwater at 4000m below the sea level. Therefore it should at least be designed to be more durable and redundancies should be built in, say a basic console with physical buttons.

But anyway, this controller debate is probably irrelevant anyway. I think it's unlikely to have been the cause of the problem here. Hope the sub is found soon so we can know what happened exactly.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#348

Post by ncallaway »

ethbr0 wrote: post #208
dmonitor wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't afford to qualify the components on your 4000m diving vehicle, you can't afford to make a 4000m diving vehicle. See: the fact that they lost their diving vehicle.

Pressure hull >> ballast control >> thrusters >> everything else I'm not sure why everyone is taking potshots at a company for trying something crazy with willing passengers . Everyone involved knew what they were getting into. Kudos to them for trying, even if they're dead. > See: the fact that they lost their diving vehicle. That's an awful lot of keyboard engineering, given nobody knows what happened yet.

> Everyone involved knew what they were getting into.

Did they?

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#349

Post by autoexecdotbat »

ekianjo wrote: post #332
medellin wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what happens when you take the move fast and break things culture to anything where people die when things break. Really just sad and so stupid.

> This is what happens when you take the move fast and break things culture Or then you take things slow and you end up like NASA who has not launched any new rocket in years. Is that better?

I think there's a happy medium, and civilian tourism probably isn't really the place to be pushing the safety envelope.

Science, discovery, boldly going where no one has gone before? Absolutely safety is going to be somewhat compromised. Taking rich people to the gawk at the Titanic? I, personally, think you're a bit of dick for MacGyvering a vessel together and calling it good enough.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#350

Post by zerocrates »

thepasswordis wrote: post #270

I am blown away that there is any overlap between HN readers and people getting gotten by this clickbait. The controller is sending control signals to the computer which controls the motors. The controller itself is basically irrelevant . It’s not actually doing the control, the motor controllers are. Using off the shelf stuff like this is also common since it’s extremely well tested and usually very physically robus…

Of course it's not directly controlling anything. It doesn't "directly" control your video game characters either by this standard. Who could possibly think differently, it's wireless for cryin' out loud.

This is a "this submersible seems like it was cobbled together out of whatever was lying around" story, a "hmm, that's funny/interesting/worrying" story from a source that has a big video-gamer audience, and a little bit a "this thing could have run out of batteries when they needed to turn" story. It's almost certainly not the cause of their issues but it does give people pause.

I wouldn't be worried about using a COTS part that people are familiar with, and I agree that's the "juicy" part of this story that gets reactions unfairly, but is it really unreasonable for people to look askance at the apparently sole method of controlling the vehicle relying on Bluetooth and AAs?

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